[phil_20686]

In my experience even that after 1c (1d) dble = 44 in the Majors could not be described as standard. One common treatment that you see regularly is dble = 4 hearts, 1h = 5+ hearts, and 1S = 4+ spades.

Morevoer, after 1c (1d) x (1H) there is no standard on what dble from opener should show. Most standard is to treat this as psyche revealing, as it is virtually a cliche for rho to bid a major when he has long diamonds, similar to 1c x 1h x.

I would guess standard is 1s = 3, dble = 4 hearts, 2S = 4 Pass = wk NT without 3 spades or four (reasonable) hearts. 1N = 18-19.

PS: Have you ever played in europe RHM? I understand that the ACBL has done a pretty good job of stamping out innovation and variety in systems in the ACBL, but for a good player not to have come across a variety of treatments for this kind of auction is shocking to me. There is enough uncertainty about auctions like this in the UK that I would not feel comfortable my partner would know how many spades 1S showed unless we had a specific agreement. Its like 1c-1d-1h-1s. Everyone thinks their treatment is "std".

[Trinidad]

 rhm, on 2012-October-24, 05:43, said:

Would you like a bet that MrAce assumed that 1S would clearly be taken as showing 4 cards in spade?
I do not care for your logic, nor for Zelandakh regionalism. [ ]
The discussion and your assumptions are plain silly.

I have missed something. In what region of the world did you assume this match was played? The kitchen table in MrAce's home? or here at BBO?

FWIW, I (and it seems some more players) consider it standard that 1♠ is bid on i) a decent minimum with 3 spades or ii) a dead minimum with 4. (Option i) is much more frequent than option ii).) It comes from the fundamental idea that you will tell your partner what he is most interested in as quickly as possible, particularly when the auction might get competitive. It also makes Pass as descriptive a call as possible.

The only slight indication that I have seen in this thread that 1♠ might have shown four spades is the 2-3-4♠ subtitle of the thread, but I may have missed something.

Rik

[Phil]

In my region, double shows 4-4 (maybe 4-5) in the majors too. In my partnerships, 1♥ or 1♠ by partner show three, and 2M show 4 and a useful minimum. It makes sense to arrive quickly at the level of our trump, and I am not sure why RHM thinks this is so controversial.

Under these constraints, 2♠ is enough, but even if 1♠ showed 4, I'd still only bid 2♠ because I hate my ♦xxx.

[gnasher]

 phil_20686, on 2012-October-24, 07:05, said:

PS: Have you ever played in europe RHM?

Has Germany seceded from Europe?

[JLOGIC]

lol @ game trying, we have a 9 count with bad spades and 3 small diamonds.

If 1S showed 4 spades I would bid 2S, otherwise I would pass.

edit: and for completion, I don't think 1S should necessarily promise 4 spades, bidding it with 3-1-4-5 and good spades makes sense to me in order to avoid defending 1H.

[lalldonn]

I would always bid 2♠. It's not up to me to worry whether partner has 3 or 4 in my opinion. If he was willing to play a 4-3 then I don't see why it would bother him to play it just one level higher when my hand is better than it might have been.

I ditto the lol at trying for game.

[JLOGIC]

 lalldonn, on 2012-October-24, 12:26, said:

I would always bid 2♠. It's not up to me to worry whether partner has 3 or 4 in my opinion. If he was willing to play a 4-3 then I don't see why it would bother him to play it just one level higher when my hand is better than it might have been.

I ditto the lol at trying for game.

Maybe, I'm just thinking our hearts will be good on defense and our bad spades will make a 4-3 problematic combined with our 3 small diamonds. Honestly, it probably doesn't matter much whether we pass or bid 2S, we are almost always going to play 2S either way if partner is 4-1 and we will probably rate to go plus in 2S or defending 2H if partner does pass it out and is 3-1 or somehow 4-2.

[rhm]

 gnasher, on 2012-October-24, 10:54, said:

Has Germany seceded from Europe?

For some geography is not their strong point and tests show more and more people are unable to read and comprehend a normal written text, also called "functional illiteracy".

Rainer Herrmann

[SteveMoe]

I've a few partners who would insist a double by opener here shows 3-card ♠ support. I think 2♠ is the best way to give opponent's the last guess. Then my ♥ will come into play...

[Zelandakh]

For some very good card players bidding is not their strong point and experience suggests that more and more bridge players are unable to go through an entire session without having a bidding misunderstanding.

This snipe was uncalled for. Phil's PS included a reference to the ACBL which made it clear he thought Rainer was American. Andy's (humourous) retort was sufficient. Besides, Germany does not secede from Europe, it conquers it!

[Trinidad]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-October-25, 03:37, said:

Besides, Germany does not secede from Europe, it conquers it!

Well, right now it is basically buying it.

But we Europeans should be grateful that at least Germans are still aware that there is such a thing as Europe outside Germany, whereas "United Stateans" are so convinced that they are the continent that they even refer to themselves as "Americans".



Rik

[rhm]

 Trinidad, on 2012-October-25, 04:39, said:

Well, right now it is basically buying it.



Rik

What are the Germans buying or conquering?

The mood in Germany is quite different. Germany is blackmailed to pay up to keep a silly currency union afloat, for the moment that is.
Germans are paying for the liabilities of foreign banks (mainly French, Spanish and Swiss), for corruption and tax dodging in Southern European countries and organized crime like the Mafia, because Italy can not find other finance for them any more.

That is the reality behind all this nonsense talk.

Rainer Herrman

[Trinidad]

Whoa!

Maybe I should prefer Germans conquering Europe instead of buying it.

Chill dude.

Rik

[phil_20686]

 rhm, on 2012-October-25, 05:14, said:

That is the reality behind all this nonsense talk.

No the reality is that the Bundesbank is run by the the World's Worst central banker, who is preventing the ECB from taking the policy actions that might save the euro. Meanwhile, the German press seem to regard him as some kind of Hero, for destabilising the eurozone and insuring that the best possible outcome will be a Japan - style deflationary spiral for the next twenty years.

[PhilKing]

 phil_20686, on 2012-October-25, 09:13, said:

No the reality is that the Bundesbank is run by the the World's Worst central banker, who is preventing the ECB from taking the policy actions that might save the euro. Meanwhile, the German press seem to regard him as some kind of Hero, for destabilising the eurozone and insuring that the best possible outcome will be a Japan - style deflationary spiral for the next twenty years.

My gut instinct is that Jens Weidman would bid 3♠ on this hand, ignoring the mountain of evidence that partner is never 4135 and merely has a pile of seaweed.

It would end with a severe write-down from AAA to junk status after a thin penalty double by RHO.

[MrAce]

 PhilKing, on 2012-October-25, 10:11, said:

My gut instinct is that Jens Weidman would bid 3♠ on this hand, ignoring the mountain of evidence that partner is never 4135 and merely has a pile of seaweed.

It would end with a severe write-down from AAA to junk status after a thin penalty double by RHO.

For those, yes 1♠ showed 4 card spades. Whether it is a good agreement ot not is irrelevant. And yes, if it showed 3 card spades, as some of you predicted i would have mentioned it.

Phil you are not bidding 4♠, it is teamgame not MP, pd knows that we are aware he doesnt have much except than shape. He doesn't know though if my heart holding is fitting well or not vs a single.

Anyway, Roy Wellan bid 3♠ at the other table, his pd Sabine Auken passed, i also bid 3♠ my pd whom i played the first time an Israeli national team player raised to 4♠. From replies i see that 2♠ would be much better. Here is pds hand

J963
--
A942
KQJ54

3♠ is making but pd went down 2 to make it. ♠ AKT was in same hand with 4 card clubs, over dummy (our hand)

[the hog]

I don't understand any bid apart from 2S. So what if partner has only 3? For me the x double showed 4-4 Majors. This is also the only sequence for me where I would let my rho's bid change my bidding structure. eg 1C (1H) 1S = 4+S, x = minor suit cards, denying the ability to bid 1NT and denies 4S.

[rsteele]

 MrAce, on 2012-October-23, 22:51, said:

---

Team game, nothing special about the bidding, 1♣ 3+ std 2/1, x showed 4-4 majors.

As Marty Bergen said of this situation "there is no standard" so let me outline the simplistic method I prefer. I bid one spade with 4 spades and 11-13 support points and bid 2 spades with 4 spades and 14-15 support points. Therefore responder on the given hand will bid 2 spades over one spade. This is not invitaional but simply follows the law. The idea that the negative double "always" shows 4-4 is bothersome as always is seldom a viable term in a game of judgement. It seems reasonable to me that over one heart in the given sequence one might make a negative double holding AQJ xxxx XX Qxxx or even certain 4-6 hands.

[PhilKing]

 MrAce, on 2012-October-26, 21:55, said:

Anyway, Roy Wellan bid 3♠ at the other table, his pd Sabine Auken passed, i also bid 3♠ my pd whom i played the first time an Israeli national team player raised to 4♠. From replies i see that 2♠ would be much better. Here is pds hand

J963
--
A942
KQJ54

3♠ is making but pd went down 2 to make it. ♠ AKT was in same hand with 4 card clubs, over dummy (our hand)

There are a couple of problems:

1. We both have ♠J9xx.

2. I've never seen Sabine in partscore when game was bid at the other table.

[mikeh]

 PhilKing, on 2012-November-02, 14:26, said:

There are a couple of problems:

1. We both have ♠J9xx.

I guess that's why they call it 'duplicate'