[bluecalm]

p 1S
2H

What hands bid 2H here and what hands bid 1N ?
What do you do with: AQJxxx xx x AQJx. How do we find about our 6-2 spades, 6-2 hearts and/or diamond stopper (or lack of) ?
I suppose 2S is not forcing here which makes matters a bit more complicated than they usually are (maybe not with the problem hand but with something like: KJxxxx xx AKx Axx

[gnasher]

There is also the problem of how to avoid a 5-1 fit in either major. You don't want to bid pass-1♠;2♥-pass with 2=5 opposite 5=1, and you don't want to bid pass-1♠;2♥-2♠ with 1=5 opposite 5=2.

The only reasonable solution I know of is to play 2♦ as an invitational+ transfer. Now:
2♥ shows a minimum with five spades
2♠ shows a minimum with six spades and not three hearts
2NT is game forcing and asking for more information
3 of anything is natural and game-forcing.

[PhilKing]

You can play 2♣ as hearts and 2♦ and 2♥ as 3- and 4-card Drury (standard Townsend).

That sorts it all out all the hearts/spade dilemmas and gives you two ways of rebidding Two Spades (2♦ is now pick a major or a bad 2♠ rebid - you could even get GF and inv 3m and 2NT bids this way).

[MickyB]

1S:1N, 2m:2H = five cards. 1S:2H = six cards. Now 5134 opposite 1534 finds the 4-4 fit rather than a choice of 5-1s. Perhaps doesn't work if you open as soundly as Townsend, mind. The 1S:2C kit looks reasonable to me.

[mike777]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-16, 15:37, said:

p 1S
2H

What hands bid 2H here and what hands bid 1N ?
What do you do with: AQJxxx xx x AQJx. How do we find about our 6-2 spades, 6-2 hearts and/or diamond stopper (or lack of) ?
I suppose 2S is not forcing here which makes matters a bit more complicated than they usually are (maybe not with the problem hand but with something like: KJxxxx xx AKx Axx

I would try 3c with hand one and open 1nt with hand two to avoid a rebid issue.

pard bidding 2h here is going to be somewhat rare as a passedhand as 1nt still can be ten or a lousy 11 here and playing BART we can still often find the heart suit.

[gnasher]

MickyB, on 2012-October-16, 17:51, said:

1S:1N, 2m:2H = five cards. 1S:2H = six cards. Now 5134 opposite 1534 finds the 4-4 fit rather than a choice of 5-1s.

But presumably either 5332 opposite 2515 finds 1NT, or 5332 opposite 2344 finds 2♠.

If pass-1♠;2♥ promises six, you're hardly ever going to bid it, because it's rare for a passed hand to have six hearts and shortish spades. I think that's a waste.

[mike777]

my best guess is pard has something close to:


xx...akqjx....xxx...xxx


1) pass, no decent 11
2) no 2h or 3h opener
3) 1nt as passed hand.

--




can we all agree pard cannot have a 1h opener or a weak 2h/3h BID?

[Fluffy]

I don't recall ever having 6 hearts after pass-1♠ are weak 2s out of fashion?

[MickyB]

gnasher, on 2012-October-17, 00:58, said:

If pass-1♠;2♥ promises six, you're hardly ever going to bid it, because it's rare for a passed hand to have six hearts and shortish spades. I think that's a waste.

In that case, play 1S:2H as 2-5 majors, or 5H5m if you prefer. My real point was that 15(43) shouldn't respond anything other than 1NT.

[PhilKing]

MickyB, on 2012-October-17, 02:37, said:

In that case, play 1S:2H as 2-5 majors, or 5H5m if you prefer. My real point was that 15(43) shouldn't respond anything other than 1NT.

What do you bid if you do pass with ♠Kx ♥Jxxxxx ♦Axx ♣Qx?

[rhm]

MickyB, on 2012-October-17, 02:37, said:

In that case, play 1S:2H as 2-5 majors, or 5H5m if you prefer. My real point was that 15(43) shouldn't respond anything other than 1NT.

Even if you play 1NT forcing is this standard as a passed hand? I doubt it.
If a passed hand has rarely more than 5 cards in a major is it really sensible to avoid bidding 2♥ over 1♠ just because you might have a better fit in a minor?

Rainer Herrmann

[helene_t]

I think that if 1♠-2♥-2♠ would be forcing with an unpassed responder, it should be forcing with a passed responder also.

Anyway, if you don't need the 2♦ response for two-way drury then it is obviously great to play tranfers.

[Fluffy]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-17, 03:16, said:

What do you bid if you do pass with ♠Kx ♥Jxxxxx ♦Axx ♣Qx?

I have no troubles bidding dreadful 6 card suits as if they were actually 5

[PhilKing]

I think transfers work pretty badly here.

[MickyB]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-17, 05:55, said:

I think transfers work pretty badly here.

Agreed. 2-5 opposite 5-3 bidding 1S:1N, 2D:2H, 2S:3H, P or whatever isn't best. Very rare that it's right to play transfers by a hand that can't be interested in GFing, i.e. most passed hand auctions.

And why would anyone *need* 2D as a four-card raise of a five-card major?

[PhilKing]

MickyB, on 2012-October-17, 06:18, said:

Agreed. 2-5 opposite 5-3 bidding 1S:1N, 2D:2H, 2S:3H, P or whatever isn't best. Very rare that it's right to play transfers by a hand that can't be interested in GFing, i.e. most passed hand auctions.

And why would anyone *need* 2D as a four-card raise of a five-card major?

3 and 4 card raises come up a lot. I agree you could put them all through one bid and sort it all out, but that's not why I like them.

Over the 4-card raise, you can just punt game with any non-min, giving away zero information. Exploration is mostly reserved for slam purposes. Over the 3-card raise you can and will often want to explore for 3NT, and can play different methods that allow that.

[karlson]

JLall had a neat suggestion: http://justinlall.co...e-hearts-again/

I keep meaning to ask him if he actually plays it with anyone -- I've never seen anyone playing this.

[PhilKing]

karlson, on 2012-October-17, 06:31, said:

JLall had a neat suggestion: http://justinlall.co...e-hearts-again/

I keep meaning to ask him if he actually plays it with anyone -- I've never seen anyone playing this.

Having two bids to show hearts is overkill. Putting both types through 2♣ is more than adequate with the extra two steps.

[bluecalm]

Thanks for the answers.
We for now agreed on simple solution: 2H is either 6H or 2S-5H (5H-5M doesn't happen too often because we have opening for that).
I like the ideas in this thread, especially transfers. If I ever have serious partnership I will surely think of agreeing on that.

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-17, 06:35, said:

Having two bids to show hearts is overkill. Putting both types through 2♣ is more than adequate with the extra two steps.

Having 2 bids for drury is overkill lol. I hate 2 way drury but I play it with kmb to please him. I think 1 bid for drury (that allows an inbetween step below 2M) is more than enough, and the rest should focus on hearts which have numerous hand types that are important.

I have yet to see a hand where 2 way drury helped one bid a game or stop when they wouldnt have done so otherwise, I mean most of the time you bid the in between step and partner bids on with 4 trumps. I guess if you have a hand that needs a great hand AND 4 trumps it might win since partner would just sign off in 1 way drury, but that is just a theoretical hand type that I have never seen.

On the other hand, I have seen many hands where they were able to make a thin balance over 4 card drury and a sign off because why not! This completely tilts me, especially at matchpoints. Good luck balancing aggressively over 1 way drury, you are going to get murdered pretty easily when you're wrong.

Honestly if you're going to play 2 way drury imo it should be one is weaker and one is stronger, and not say anything about 4 card or 3 card. Even that probably has limited use, especially in the context of opening light and strong club which I usually play. Playing standard and 2 way drury, thats how I'd want to play though, but I'd rather just have 1 bid for drury.

Quote

I keep meaning to ask him if he actually plays it with anyone -- I've never seen anyone playing this.

Nope, they all think it is not important enough and too weird for the memory work. Probably true given how light my serious partnerships open. I still like the idea, maybe mr hamman will play it with me but we have other things to worry about right now.