[jillybean]

A pass card is solid green PASS, a redouble card is solid blue XX, what caused you not to see the XX is inattention.
I think the only reason a bid or pass is allowed to be taken back in an auction is when there has been misinformation, but not because
a player has been inattentive. I have put a pass card on the table after my partners keycard ask because I have been inattentive and quite rightly, not been allowed to take back my pass.

However, since ACBL regulations state that if you are using bid boxes, a bid is not made until a bid card is placed on the table, therefore until a player puts a bid on the table, they have not made a call. For those too lazy to use a pass card, this opens up the possibility for abuse or at minimum, recovery from a moment of inattentiveness.
And I should say here, it's not only the players in the pass out seat who indicate that they are passing by picking up their bidding cards, players in 2nd, 3rd seat also do this when they believe the auction has ended.

I'm using this case to highlight what I see as a potential problem. I wasn't at the table, I don't know how things transpired. If they player was inexperienced
and in fact rather than "not seeing" the XX, didn't realise that she could bid again after X (XX) P (P), which I think is quite possible, then this is an opportunity for the director to provide some education rather than enforce laws. If indeed it was inattention, I would hope the contract would stand but it seems that the director has no grounds to force a pass on someone who has simply picked up their bidding cards.

[blackshoe]

MI is not the only reason a player might be allowed to change her call. Certainly inattentiveness is not a valid reason, but an unintended call can be changed. Even an intended call can be changed, if the change is made without asking and LHO accepts it. And various irregularities, usually by opps, may create a situation in which calls can be changed — MI is only one such.

[jillybean]

Unintended: Involuntary; not under control of the will;
not the intention of the player at the moment of his action.

Does this limit unintended bids to ones that are caused by a mechanical error rather than a slip of the mind?

Ie A player pulls 3H out of the bidding box , but the 3S card comes out also?

[blackshoe]

Not necessarily, although "mechanical error" is the most common thing, using bidding boxes.

[kevperk]

billw55, on 2013-January-04, 16:07, said:

I might use the stop card if a sufficient number of partners/opponents/directors/whoever prompted me to do so. As it is, the actual number is exactly zero in 20+ years (on and off) of bridge. If I ever meet you guys at the table, you can be the first!

An ACBL director friend of mine who is also a very good player told me he no longer uses the stop card so that he can almost always get his bid on the table before his LHO.

[CSGibson]

jillybean, on 2013-January-03, 16:21, said:

It appears that those following the correct pass procedures are at a disadvantage.

This wildly overstates the situation. There is no way that there is any real competitive advantage to passing with a pass card as opposed to picking up your cards, and certainly not enough of one to actually worry about. This is a complete non-issue, but it appears by the statements in this thread...specifically the one quoted... like you are blowing it up out of proportion.

[kevperk]

When this (picking up bidding cards) came up at a tournament at which I was directing, what I thought was that I was going to do is decide whether I believed that if the player in question had been playing online, and at this point, would they be sitting there wondering why the hand had not proceeded to the play period. When I used to play online, I have had opponents finally write "oh, I thought the auction was over, didn't realize I had another bid" when in the passout seat. I believe that playing face to face, they would have picked up the bidding cards.

[jillybean]

CSGibson, on 2013-January-06, 21:49, said:

This wildly overstates the situation. There is no way that there is any real competitive advantage to passing with a pass card as opposed to picking up your cards, and certainly not enough of one to actually worry about. This is a complete non-issue, but it appears by the statements in this thread...specifically the one quoted... like you are blowing it up out of proportion.

How does this wildly overstate the situation? No where in this thread have I stated that this is a frequent problem. It is however a fact that those players who do not use a pass card have an advantage over those that do.

[CSGibson]

jillybean, on 2013-January-06, 22:17, said:

How does this wildly overstate the situation? No where in this thread have I stated that this is a frequent problem. It is however a fact that those players who do not use a pass card have an advantage over those that do.

It wildly overstates it because I don't actually see any advantage. Let's say that, worst case scenerio, someone is maliciously acting as you suggest, picking up cards so that they can make a bid if they change their mind later. They don't have any additional information available to help them to make this decision, so I don't see why they have an advantage. They could have taken as much time as they wanted anyway, there's no need to manipulate your mannerisms to create an artificial window in which you can deliberate a decision further through lying.

[jillybean]

I said the worst case, someone abuses the situation. I imagine people could think of many ways to abuse this, I pickup my bidding cards and then make a bid, this passes some predetermined information to my partner. Laugh if you like, this isn't the enemy I am concerned about. The problem is where the player misses a bid, is inattentative, picks up their bidding cards to put them back in the box and then realises they should have bid. Their partner twitched, the opponents gasped, the player suddenly woke up, something caused the player to realise they should have bid. Even if my bidding cards are back in the box I can still take them out again and make a bid.
Compare this to a player who uses a pass card.

[c_corgi]

jillybean, on 2013-January-06, 23:18, said:

I said the worst case, someone abuses the situation. I imagine people could think of many ways to abuse this, I pickup my bidding cards and then make a bid, this passes some predetermined information to my partner...

Bridge is very much open to this sort of abuse. There is no practical solution and assuming people will be basically honest is as good a rule of thumb as any. Attempting to secretary-bird ones way to a ridiculous redoubled contract with overtricks against innattentive opponents certainly doesn't address the problem you describe.

[bluejak]

barmar, on 2013-January-04, 12:37, said:

This is America. I guarantee that even if the regs did say anything, it would make little difference. E.g. the regs DO have a precise procedure for use of the STOP card, but how many players actually follow it?

A few, more over time. But the interest comes when a player does not follow the regulation, something happens, and they get ruled against.

billw55, on 2013-January-04, 16:07, said:

I might use the stop card if a sufficient number of partners/opponents/directors/whoever prompted me to do so. As it is, the actual number is exactly zero in 20+ years (on and off) of bridge. If I ever meet you guys at the table, you can be the first!

I used to use the Stop card in the ACBL, since I am used to it here. But once I realised hardly anyone does, you don't control the tempo, and it has been officially interpreted as voluntary, I stopped.

jillybean, on 2013-January-06, 19:08, said:

A pass card is solid green PASS, a redouble card is solid blue XX, what caused you not to see the XX is inattention.
I think the only reason a bid or pass is allowed to be taken back in an auction is when there has been misinformation, but not because
a player has been inattentive.

No way: Law 25A applies very much when a player has been inattentive. As the one who seems to make the highest number of wrong calls inadvertently - maybe five a session - I understand this thoroughly.

jillybean, on 2013-January-06, 20:27, said:

Unintended: Involuntary; not under control of the will;
not the intention of the player at the moment of his action.

Does this limit unintended bids to ones that are caused by a mechanical error rather than a slip of the mind?

Ie A player pulls 3H out of the bidding box , but the 3S card comes out also?

If you intend to bid 3♥ and 3♠ comes out, whether because you reached for the wrong card, the two came out together, or for any other reason, it may be changed under Law 25A.

CSGibson, on 2013-January-06, 21:49, said:

This wildly overstates the situation. There is no way that there is any real competitive advantage to passing with a pass card as opposed to picking up your cards, and certainly not enough of one to actually worry about. This is a complete non-issue, but it appears by the statements in this thread...specifically the one quoted... like you are blowing it up out of proportion.

That is the main reason I have not commented on the main questions raised here: too trivial. Sure, you might get one cheat per 50,000 players who don't pass correctly: big deal. And a competent TD will investigate in the one situation where they seem to be gaining.

[Vampyr]

bluejak, on 2013-January-27, 13:49, said:

No way: Law 25A applies very much when a player has been inattentive. As the one who seems to make the highest number of wrong calls inadvertently - maybe five a session - I understand this thoroughly.

Do you use a strange procedure when you bid? I ask because I think that the average number of times a player pulls out the wrong call and L25A is invoked is fewer than five occurrences per lifetime.

[bluejak]

I do not know why I do it, but I can assure you the average is not five a lifetime. Most Law 25A rulings are dealt with by commonsense, but in my experience there are always a couple an evening from other people.

[barmar]

I wonder if the frequency of 25A rulings is higher in the UK than US, because of the difference in bidding box regulations. Here, the call isn't considered made until it's on or near the table. Players sometimes pull a card from the box, and notice that it's the wrong card while it's just a few inches out of the box, so they're able to correct it with no TD involvement. Under EBU regs, I think the bid would be considered made, so you have to use 25A to correct it.

[RMB1]

barmar, on 2013-January-28, 10:16, said:

I wonder if the frequency of 25A rulings is higher in the UK than US, because of the difference in bidding box regulations. Here, the call isn't considered made until it's on or near the table.

I don't think there is a high incidence of Law 25A rulings (where the TD is called) despite some individuals with a high frequency of needing to change. There is (I am sure) a higher incidence of Law 25A changes of call for the reason suggested. Players take calls out of the box, find they have too few or too many, stuff them back in the box and make the intended call. Under EBU regulations, the uppermost of the pile of calls is made, and the change of call is allowed under Law 25A - the TD is rarely called for such chnages.

[Vampyr]

jillybean, on 2013-January-06, 20:27, said:

Unintended: Involuntary; not under control of the will;
not the intention of the player at the moment of his action.

Does this limit unintended bids to ones that are caused by a mechanical error rather than a slip of the mind?

Of course it does.

[TimG]

jillybean, on 2013-January-03, 16:21, said:

Of course picking up your bidding cards is commonly used to indicate a pass, I'd say it is more common than putting a pass card on the table.

In my experience, picking up the bidding cards is usually accompanied by some verbalization or a tap of a previous pass card. When no such accompanying indication occurs, I think it would be reasonable to believe that a player did not see a call and erroneously believed the auction was already over before she got another chance to call.

[Vampyr]

TimG, on 2013-February-18, 08:39, said:

In my experience, picking up the bidding cards is usually accompanied by some verbalization or a tap of a previous pass card. When no such accompanying indication occurs, I think it would be reasonable to believe that a player did not see a call and erroneously believed the auction was already over before she got another chance to call.

Around here, the player in the passout seat will frequently pick up the cards with no further gesture or comment.

If someone who is not in the passout seat starts to mistakenly pick up their cards, they are often reminded by another player that the auction is not yet over.