[dake50]

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK

..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6
1C-2D- 18+bal or clubs; or 5losers+5controls+5+spades - 8+, 5+hearts
2H-2S- 3+hearts or accepting for info - no HA,K,Q
4H Done talking.



Get a survey of how this is going. That the discussion is pointedly intending their best judgment.
Then batch 5 or 10.
I seldom can predict which days I can get back to see other mind's suggestions.
But I don't want to miss the live time on any hand.

[chasetb]

This is a little late, but I'm sure that R-M Precision (the actual name of Meckwell's Precision system) would get to 4♠ as well. Ironically, it's the shortest auction of the bunch.
1♣-2♦ (8-10 balanced)
4♠

[straube]

 chasetb, on 2013-January-13, 13:08, said:

This is a little late, but I'm sure that R-M Precision (the actual name of Meckwell's Precision system) would get to 4♠ as well. Ironically, it's the shortest auction of the bunch.
1♣-2♦ (8-10 balanced)
4♠

I'm familiar with their strong club but not enough to post for them. Are you? It would be a nice addition.

[JLOGIC]

They do not bid 1C p 2D with 5 hearts imo, so there is that. If hearts were shown to begin with it would be another question of judgement to get to spades rather than hearts.

[chasetb]

Yeah, I admit they don't usually skip 5 Hearts, but this suit is REALLY ragged, and they do like to limit their hands when possible. I can't really do a confident auction if it goes 1♣-1♠, so that was one reason I went with balanced 8-10.

The other reason is that they still can find a 5-3 Heart fit after the 2♦ bid. In that case, the auction goes 1♣-2♦ ; 2NT (Stayman-ish) - 3♠ (5 Hearts). The other possible responses after 2NT are 3♣ (4 Hearts, could have 4 Spades), 3♦ (4 Spades, denies 4 Hearts), and 3♥ (5 Spades) for those who are remotely interested.

EDIT - Forgot to list that 3NT denies a Major obv.

[straube]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-January-13, 14:02, said:

They do not bid 1C p 2D with 5 hearts imo, so there is that. If hearts were shown to begin with it would be another question of judgement to get to spades rather than hearts.

Yeah, I think their auction starts 1C-1S, 2C where spades shows hearts and clubs shows hearts. I think in general that in Precision-based systems, opener usually shows his suit before supporting or inquiring after responder's suit. I'm sure there are exceptions...like when opener is prepared to take control of the auction and doesn't need to know about support for his own suit. In this hand, opener has a nice minimum and would be glad to have his partner upgrade the SK if he had happened to have had it.

[straube]

 chasetb, on 2013-January-13, 14:31, said:

Yeah, I admit they don't usually skip 5 Hearts, but this suit is REALLY ragged, and they do like to limit their hands when possible. I can't really do a confident auction if it goes 1♣-1♠, so that was one reason I went with balanced 8-10.

The other reason is that they still can find a 5-3 Heart fit after the 2♦ bid. In that case, the auction goes 1♣-2♦ ; 2NT (Stayman-ish) - 3♠ (5 Hearts). The other possible responses after 2NT are 3♣ (4 Hearts, could have 4 Spades), 3♦ (4 Spades, denies 4 Hearts), and 3♥ (5 Spades).

I have very old and partial notes of theirs. They used to show 4m4m and unspecified 4m333. It sounds like you are much more familiar with what they are doing now.

[JLOGIC]

I thought same as you straube, I thought they had no way to show a 5 card major after 2D since they didn't bid it with a 5 card major and showed 4-4 and 33(43).

[akhare]

Since Josh is MIA, here's the TOSR auction from memory (RobF can correct if I am wrong):

..........K4
..........98763
..........7542
..........AK

..........AQJ982
..........QJ5
..........AK
..........T6

1♣ - 1♠ (16+, Bal/reds)
1N - 3♣ (2=5=4=2)
3♦ - 3♥ (2-5 AK controls)
4♦ - 4♥ (terminator; decision to play 4♥ to conceal hand, but 4♠ possible too)

[Zelandakh]

My auction is also short and somewhat similar to PhilKing's:

1♠ = max 17, 5+ spades, unbal
... - 1N = INV+ relay
2♠ = max, 6+ spades, no side suit
... - 4♠

My auction highlights something which I think is relevant if you want to have meaningful data. Are you looking for the best practical auctions, or for the best end contract (in a vacuum)? I ask this because if I knew I was in a bidding contest (and therefore that the play was irrelevant) then I would happily relay over 2♠ in case Opener has a perfecto. But my feeling is that doing that in practise would be a mistake because it makes the defence very easy. Therefore, simply recording the final contract does not seem to me to accurately portray the essential characteristics of the various systems, which I thought was one of your aims.

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-14, 03:12, said:

My auction is also short and somewhat similar to PhilKing's:

1♠ = max 17, 5+ spades, unbal
... - 1N = INV+ relay
2♠ = max, 6+ spades, no side suit
... - 4♠

My auction highlights something which I think is relevant if you want to have meaningful data. Are you looking for the best practical auctions, or for the best end contract (in a vacuum)? I ask this because if I knew I was in a bidding contest (and therefore that the play was irrelevant) then I would happily relay over 2♠ in case Opener has a perfecto. But my feeling is that doing that in practise would be a mistake because it makes the defence very easy. Therefore, simply recording the final contract does not seem to me to accurately portray the essential characteristics of the various systems, which I thought was one of your aims.

Good question. I would say bid it as you would at the table...so not looking for the perfecto if you are concerned about information leakage. Still, a lot of us play relay systems because we're looking for that magic slam, so there may be a bit of bias here in that direction. We may or may not wind up scoring this somehow. If we did, we'd ask whoever scores it to look at whether too much information was given, whether the contract was wrong-sided, etc. It would probably be very subjective and wouldn't mean a lot. Not to me anyway. I think this is an opportunity for us to compare systems and make independent judgments. Do we like how our system is doing or do we see something better? That's why it's important to try to bid as objectively as possible, because not doing so hurts ourselves.

[nige1]

 straube, on 2013-January-11, 12:34, said:

#01. South opens 1C. No interference. All white

Jasmine ♣
North ♠ K4 ♥ 98763 ♦ 7542 ♣ AK: __ 1♠ 2N 3N
South ♠ AQJ982 ♥ QJ5 ♦ AK ♣ T6: 1♣ 2♠ 3♥ 4♥

• 1♣ = Art, 16+
• 1♠ = Art, 8+, 4+♥
• 2♠ = Nat..
• 2N = Art, 5+ ♥, denies 3♠.
• 3♥ = Nat, Key-ask.
• 3N = 1/4 keys.
• 4♥ = Nat

Marks, IMO: 4N = 10. 4♠ = 7. 4♥ = 5. 5♠ = 4. Partscores = 2. 5♥ = 1.

[the_clown]

1♣-1♥ (8-11 no 5♠)
1♠ - ? Now depending if you bid 1N or 2♥ you will play 4♠ or 4♥

[Mbodell]

4♠N for us (tosr based system).

1♣-1♠ : forcing, art, 16+; game force, 8+ hcp, 2+ controls, balanced [4333, 4432] or both red suits
1nt-2♣ : relay; both red suits
2♦-3♣ : relay; 2=5=4=2 (or occasionally 1=7=4=1)
3♦-3nt : relay; 4 controls
4♦-4♥ : puppet to 4♥ for sign off; forced
4♠ : to play

[qplus10]

I thought I would see what the second best strong club bidding program came up with so here is the auction for qplus10.



First I ran a simulation for it to chose between 1♥ and 1nt. It decided 1♥ 5 cards 8+ was 1.4 imps worse than 1nt 8-11 balanced gf.
So 1♣ - 1nt
2♠ - 2nt It prefered 2nt to 3♥ by 0.6 imps. It really doesn't like this heart suit.
3nt 3nt and 4♠ had the same score at imps but 3nt gained in mps so I chose that.

All bids after 1nt are natural.

[Mbodell]

 qplus10, on 2013-January-28, 11:53, said:

I thought I would see what the second best strong club bidding program came up with so here is the auction for qplus10.

Yeah! I like seeing computers bidding, and hope the computer world championship will become less restrictive than the ACBL (instead of more restrictive) and allow more creative systems play. But what is the best strong club bidding program if qplus10 is second?

[Cthulhu D]

 Mbodell, on 2013-January-28, 14:25, said:

Yeah! I like seeing computers bidding, and hope the computer world championship will become less restrictive than the ACBL (instead of more restrictive) and allow more creative systems play. But what is the best strong club bidding program if qplus10 is second?

GIB and Jack both play MOSCITO.

[qplus10]

Jack is the best in my opinion I may go through the hands with him after qplus. Jack has 3 options moscito, precision with all natural follow ups or 1♣1♦1♥is hearts or balanced.

Playing normal systems Jack was about 2 imps a board better than gib last time I checked.

It might be interesting to run some of the better programs against some strong players if they ever fancy it to see how far computers are behind these days. matches against wbridge5 the second best overall program for the last few years are easy to run and the program is free so I am not so worried about advertising something bbo doesn't sell. wbridge5 doesn't play any strong clubs though.

[jack502]

Here are the results for jack 5.02 moscito which shd be more sane than qplus10 we'll see.

1♣ 1♦
2♥ 2♠
2nt 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3nt 4♦
4♥ 4♠

At least it makes more sense so far. 1♣ is 15+ 1♦ is gf. 2♥ spade single suiter. bids to 3nt are relays and shape showing 6322. 4♦terminator.

[mr1303]

A version of Icelandic Relays

1C 1S (Hearts)
1NT 2H (2 spades)
2S 3C (2542)
3D 3NT (4 controls)
4S