[kgr]

1NT-3C
3D-3H
3NT-4C
?

1NT=15-17
3C=transfer D, weak or GF (Not intermediate)
3D=forced
3H=singleton H
3NT=to play (no good hand, bad Diamonds and/or lost points in H)
4C=Cue, 1st/2nd

Suppose above bidding agreements and RKC is only done with 4NT.
(4NT=2nd negative, 4D=forcing, 4S=S-cue, no H Ace)

What is the difference between 4D and 4S now? Do you have an agreement about a situation like this?
(I would be surprised if anyone have agreed this, but then: what do you think it should be?)
4S=(S cue, no H-ace), and:
- partner, you can RKC. I don't have exactly 2 aces
- I have a 3cD
- I have a good hand (aces) for my 3NT bid
...?

Thanks,
Koen

[Cyberyeti]

Is the 3♥ always singleton rather than void ? If so, maybe 4♦ wants to encourage a 4♥ cue to revalue his hearts in case of partner holding a stiff ace. If you have ♥KQ(J)x and a 17 count, your hand becomes extremely good if partner has a stiff ace, but is indifferent otherwise.

[Free]

Depends a lot on your slam bidding with minor suit fits. Do you use minorwood/RKC/Kickback RKC/Kickback Turbo/...?

[fromageGB]

I have no agreement (see next paragraph), but in our style, when partner is auto-forcing diamonds, and 4NT is the ace-ask, 4♦ is no major A, and 4M the cheapest A.

It does not apply to me, because with kickback, 4♥ would be ace asking, so if opener has delayed diamond support he bids 4♦ so responder can ask. Therefore if opener bids a 4♥ it emphasises that hearts are OK for NT, but leaves the choice to partner, 4♠ suggests an alternative contract, and 4NT is to play.

[kgr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-21, 12:32, said:

Is the 3♥ always singleton rather than void ? If so, maybe 4♦ wants to encourage a 4♥ cue to revalue his hearts in case of partner holding a stiff ace. If you have ♥KQ(J)x and a 17 count, your hand becomes extremely good if partner has a stiff ace, but is indifferent otherwise.

system notes say single, but it can be a void also.
4♥ iso 3♥ is undefined, but should probably be a void or voidwood (to be agreed)

[kgr]

 Free, on 2013-January-21, 12:59, said:

Depends a lot on your slam bidding with minor suit fits. Do you use minorwood/RKC/Kickback RKC/Kickback Turbo/...?

minorwood when suit is agreed before bidding 4m, that wasn't the case here. 4NT RKC here.

[Zelandakh]

 kgr, on 2013-January-21, 17:30, said:

minorwood when suit is agreed before bidding 4m, that wasn't the case here. 4NT RKC here.

4♣ did not agree diamonds?

Given 4NT as the ask, perhaps 4♠ here should be a natural slam try with a good spade suit rather than a cue. It is often a good agreement that when you have a cheap bid that will force a cue auction, bidding something else shows a specific hand, typically either a side suit or shortage depending on context.

Another good option (and this would be my personal choice as a non-fan of Minorwood) would be for 4♦ to be a slam try and 4♠ to show serious slam interest.

To be honest though, given that you generally play Minorwood I think you should reconsider your definition of suit agreement and play 4♦ as RKCB and 4♠ as a cue. This would fit your system and be usable across a wider range of auctions.

[Fluffy]

I play more or less the same system as you, I find little difference between one and another, 4♠ takes more space away, so as a general rule it should be a more descriptive bid, on this context I would take it as a better hand, so 4M means I accept slam, while 4♦ would be an I am not so sure bid.

To superaccept the slam, opener could have any super slam holding on the short, for example AJ10, but on this case opener bypassed 4♥ so it is not possible, best holdings for slam without the ace would be rare, but can have AAKK outside hearts or something equally good involving ♦Q like AAK♦Q or perhaps a bit less with a black doubleton

[gszes]

4d should be a no other good choice bid with a hand like

KJxx
KQ
QJxx
Kxxx

or some such where rebidding 4n looks bad-- while this is unlikely
this type of usage can save you from some very poor contracts.

[fromageGB]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-22, 04:26, said:

4♣ did not agree diamonds?

Absolutely, surely it must. Responder has long diamonds and happy to play opposite a doubleton. "Auto-agreement".

Zelandakh said:

I think you should reconsider your definition of suit agreement and play 4♦ as RKCB and 4♠ as a cue.

No, this can't work. Opener does not know responder's length, or how many tricks are there, or whether there is a heart loser. It has to be responder that asks for aces and kings. So much better, surely, to have 4 diamonds as "possibly useful hand, agree your suit, go ahead and ask for aces" and then responder's next step (4♥) asks. Of course you have a probable agreement that opener does not show ♥K.

 gszes, on 2013-January-22, 07:18, said:

4d should be a no other good choice bid with a hand like

KJxx
KQ
QJxx
Kxxx

or some such

This is excluded by the initial 3NT bid ...

 kgr, on 2013-January-21, 10:35, said:

3NT=to play (no good hand, bad Diamonds and/or lost points in H)

and also suffers from the fact that opener cannot ask for aces, as above.

Face it - whether you normally play 4NT only, minorwood or whatever, in this sequence responder has be the one to ask. While you could say 4♠ invites a 4NT ask, much better to say 4♦ invites a 4♥ ask.

[kgr]

---

This was the actual bidding that triggered the question.
East did lead ♥A and another ♥.
North played ♦K and ♦.
Would you play ♦A or ♦J now?

[aguahombre]

I would hook, so probably banging is right.

[fromageGB]

I would play A, so probably the finesse is right.

[mgoetze]

 kgr, on 2013-January-23, 11:20, said:

Would you play ♦A or ♦J now?

Is this a trick question? I can't see any reason to deviate from the standard play of the ace.

[kgr]

 mgoetze, on 2013-January-23, 16:37, said:

Is this a trick question? I can't see any reason to deviate from the standard play of the ace.

It wasn't. Maybe the lead of the Ace makes it more likely that East thinks he has another trick?

This hand came from a team match against 2nd placed. (probably decisive about champion in a lower league).
My partner finessed and East had ♦Qxx; at the other table the hand was played by South. West did lead ♦J from QJxx and declarer played diamonds from top for -1.

In the first half of the match there was another 6♦ played at both tables. No losers in side suits with: ♦Kxx - ♦QT87xx. The ♦K lost to the ♦A.
At our table played I next played ♦ from top, at the other table a ♦ was immediately returned and declarer found this strange. He finessed. ♦s were 2-2.

Twice 6♦, twice a different decision taken at both tables. We were twice lucky.

[aguahombre]

 kgr, on 2013-January-24, 16:34, said:

at the other table the hand was played by South. West did lead ♦J from QJxx and declarer played diamonds from top for -1.

They played a different board at the other table?

[kgr]

 aguahombre, on 2013-January-24, 18:01, said:

They played a different board at the other table?

Heart J iso Diamond J , sorry

[Fluffy]

♥A is a ♦Q indicator, admitelly very feble when dummy has shown singleton, but note how ♥A go rid of the 4th club problem, it is not automatic, finese vs drop is very close anyway so any kind indicator is good enough for me. I would finese also.