[ahydra]

(Weak NT, 4cM throughout)

My partner and I are from two similar-yet-different schools of bidding - I was never really taught "standard" bidding and found out only by learning at the table, while partner seems to know Standard English Acol inside-out. We've made generally solid agreements about uncontested auctions and overcalls/UCBs etc, but seem to have differing opinions about redoubles. So I'd be grateful for some expert opinions...

Say it goes 1x-(X)-XX. That promises 9+ without a fit, easy enough. But partner seems to think it implies penalty interest, such that in these two auctions the marked double is for penalty:

---

---

I on the other hand think that the XX is simply a decriptive bid - balance of points with no clear direction - and the Xs here should be for takeout, since the chances of wanting to defeat the opps in 1H (or even 2H) is very small. So the first question:

1) which meaning, in your opinion, is the better way to play?

On the same theme:

2) After opponents bid (1D)-X-(XX), is pass here suggesting desire to play in 1DXX, similar to a penalty pass of (1D)-X?

What about this kind of thing?

---

I'd play this as showing about 14+ but with another suit, sort of like if opener had bid another suit and I'd made a takeout X instead. My partner knows it promises extra values, but I'd hate for him to pass instead of take it out to a fit.

3) Should, in general, advancer remove the redouble in the auction above without a heart fit? (Or even with a heart fit, if he has a really weak hand, to go for 200 instead of 400?!)

4) Along a similar line: is responder expected to take this out?

---

And now for something completely different. I'm not always convinced that, having opened, I'm doing the right thing by passing on the second round of the auction on a minimum hand. Say:

---

I would normally now pass, and only bid 2D if I had about a queen-and-a-bit more.

5) Do you bid 2D here? If not, how much more would you want before you bid 2D? What if we swap diamonds and clubs, so 2H is about your only real bid?

6) How much do you need to make a TOX here? My partner says "even a minimum hand is enough if it has shape" but then gets confused when I ask him why he didn't reopen a balanced 15. I always thought you needed some extra values (say a good 14) to make a TOX, and I tend to TOX any balanced 15-16 (with no stop) unless it has good defence, and all 17-19s (even when partner passes on the first round - he may have had to pass due to having no suitable bid).

Many thanks,

ahydra

Edit: this may well belong better in the Natural Bidding forum, if a mod agrees could they please move it? Thanks.
Edit2: prettified the post with hand diagrams

[Vampyr]

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

I am afraid I can't deal with so many questions at once, but I can make a start!

1) which meaning, in your opinion, is the better way to play?

I believe it is standard among good players to agree that after a redouble, the first double is takeout and all subsequent doubles are penalty. As far as when pass is forcing, some say never, some say always and others say over 2m but not 2M. I do not know which of these is standard or best.

Quote

On the same theme:

2) After opponents bid (1D)-X-(XX), is pass here suggesting desire to play in 1DXX, similar to a penalty pass of (1D)-X?

I think this is probably best, but some people prefer for pass to be no preference between the remaining suits, or at least between the majors.

[Zelandakh]

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

1) which meaning, in your opinion, is the better way to play?

Your partner's way is the traditional way and I would assume this with a random partner. I believe is quite common amongst experts to play Pass-Double inversion here, such that the first double is takeout. The situation is similar to 1NTX auctions and you should probably use the same rules here as you use there.

As for which is the better way to play, I would argue neither. It is probably best to play XX artificially, for example as a transfer (hearts in your example auction). There is a very strong trend amongst top players towards this approach.

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

2) After opponents bid (1D)-X-(XX), is pass here suggesting desire to play in 1DXX, similar to a penalty pass of (1D)-X?

The traditional way to play this Pass is as showing no strong preference for a suit. Playing it as a penalty pass is possible and at least some BBFers do that (agua for one iirc).

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

What about this kind of thing?

This is something of an interesting spot because you do not really need XX for anything. That leaves many possibilities open. I am not convinced that "general values" is a very good agreement. Better would be for it to show something specific for us to decide how high we want to compete: good hearts, a specific side suit, or whatever.

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

3) Should, in general, advancer remove the redouble in the auction above without a heart fit? (Or even with a heart fit, if he has a really weak hand, to go for 200 instead of 400?!)

I cannot think of any hand where I would remove with a heart fit. A long suit of my own and a hand worthless in hearts might be worth a bid though.

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

4) Along a similar line: is responder expected to take this out?

I can see removing to my own suit if West's Pass was described as "penalty" (rather than "you choose") but I suspect the latter is the more common agreement.

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

5) Do you bid 2D here? If not, how much more would you want before you bid 2D? What if we swap diamonds and clubs, so 2H is about your only real bid?

I would bid 2♦ with diamonds but pass with clubs. Also, I assume you do not play Support Doubles here but rather the "Strong NT Double". I mention this mainly to provide some extra system context for the Strong NTers.

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

6) How much do you need to make a TOX here?

As above, this is not so much a pure takeout double as a general values double in a weak NT system. A typical hand for this would be a (semi-)balanced 15-17 or 18+ without a sensible rebid, although there is room to throw extra hands in here too. These auctions are the ones where playing a weak NT hurts you.

[ahydra]

I'm going to e-mail this thread to my partners to get their thoughts, in the meantime I see in the other thread ("Meaning of Pass") there's multiple arguments for and against playing pass as penalty in auction (2). I think you're likely to get more mileage out of a "takeout pass" than a penalty pass, but if pass is 99% forcing you're vulnerable to advanced players psyching redoubles against you? (Still, probably doesn't gain them much)

After an XX playing the first X as T/O looks pretty sensible and no doubt much more useful than a penalty double. I'd wager money that if you asked your average club player what the double as responder in (1) means, they'd say "not sure, but I'd assume takeout".

The more I think about it, the more I like playing XX in (3) and (4) as the equivalent of a TOX. Particularly in weak NT systems, those kinds of hands are quite common.

ahydra

[PhilKing]

If you are going down the take-out after redouble route, you can assign pass followed by double to show a 4333 pattern with 10+ points. Note: this should apply only after 1♣ and possibly 1♦ as well depending on suit length promised in a 5CM system. In your (Acol) framework, it makes sense opposite majors as well.

There is another issue to clear up. Playing take out doubles, it makes sense to reverse the traditional meaning of pass and pull being strong, but the issue is a little complex.

[ahydra]

PhilKing, on 2013-February-15, 05:42, said:

If you are going down the take-out after redouble route, you can assign pass followed by double to show a 4333 pattern with 10+ points. Note: this should apply only after 1♣ and possibly 1♦ as well depending on suit length promised in a 5CM system. In your (Acol) framework, it makes sense opposite majors as well.

There is another issue to clear up. Playing take out doubles, it makes sense to reverse the traditional meaning of pass and pull being strong, but the issue is a little complex.

Just to check, do you mean this?
1H-(X)-p-(something);
p-(p)-X = 10+, flat

1H-(X)-XX = 10+, with some shape

1H-(X)-XX-(1S);
p-(p)-X-(p);
2C = weak (where normally with a weak hand one would bid 2C over 1S directly)

Can you explain how these sequences help?

Thanks,

ahydra

[PhilKing]

ahydra, on 2013-February-15, 07:32, said:

Just to check, do you mean this?
1H-(X)-p-(something);
p-(p)-X = 10+, flat

1H-(X)-XX = 10+, with some shape

Yes.

1H-(X)-XX-(1S);
p-(p)-X-(p);
2C = weak (where normally with a weak hand one would bid 2C over 1S directly)

Can you explain how these sequences help?

Well, with a second suit of clubs one has four options. 2♣ now, 2♣ over a double and doubling for takeout and removing (say) 2♦ to 3♣ and jumping to 3♣. I play them as follows:

1. 2♣ now, forcing, no interest in defending. Just a hand that wants a normal auction.

2. Pass and pull. You are 54 non-forcing, but did not want to double 1♠ for take-out. My personal preference is for a double of 1♠ to suggest two trumps. I am happy to double at the two level with a singleton if suitable.

3. Double then 3♣ FG but happy for partner to pass 1♠ doubled.

4. FG 55+.

Now it may look as if I have gained nothing, but when I am weak, partner is often going to bid 1NT and we can play there rather than 2♣. But secondly, we sometimes have to bid a three card suit - not in this sequence, but when we have a 5233 shape with three low clubs and they run to 2♣ after 1♠-x-xx.

And the distinctions become more important when rebidding our major. Sometimes we will have to rebid a five bagger in an awkward spot, so play that bidding 2M in front of partner as a decent opening with six trumps rather than seaweed.

Playing my way, responder can even float them out in two of a suit holding length since I can only have a penalty double or a bad hand. This is more of a consideration when opening third in hand, though.


Thanks,

ahydra

.

[ggwhiz]

It's an interesting and complex topic.

Marty Bergen wrote that if you own a more descriptive bid like 1nt or 1 of a suit you should do that instead of a redouble with no desire to punish them or force (or at least invite) a min opener to game. We follow that and tend to survive better against light doubles based on shape but other structures could work fine, just a lot of partnership discussion.

The murky redouble is prone to preemption even after 1♠ - dbl - rdbl - 2♥ when the shape and pts can be so wide ranging.

[P_Marlowe]

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:56, said:

(Weak NT, 4cM throughout)
<snip>
Say it goes 1x-(X)-XX. That promises 9+ without a fit, easy enough. But partner seems to think it implies penalty interest
<snip>
I on the other hand think that the XX is simply a decriptive bid - balance of points with no clear direction
<snip>

First your partner ist right, XX showes interest in going for blood, it showes that we have
the majority, and that the hand beongs to us, from this followes, that XX generates a FP
sequence, you can discuss how high they have to bid, so that the FP is no longer active.

Second XX should also deny primary fit.

In your mail you also discussed the meaning of a follow up X.
In a FP sequence, standard is certainly X is penalty, but you can play X as T/O, if you want, which is certainly useful to a certain extend.
In general I would say, it is more importent to play X in FP sequences in a consistent manner, than what you actually do, dont change the agreement
depending on auction.

#2 Pass in the auction
(1D) - X - (XX) - Pass
...

Two options, converting the T/O to penalty or no preference.

no preference is prone to psych bids, but nevertheless more useful
than the other.
One reason - Conversion of a T/O is rare, more rare than being broke,
so a bid saying, partner bid your best suit is more frequent, but they
can psych you.

With kind regards
Marlowe