[TWO4BRIDGE]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-18, 05:28, said:

Playing OS the defense is pretty clear here, i would make it at the table with a regular partner.

All that discouraging ♦ does is discourage ♦ continuation.

How is a ♣ shift obvious ? and not a ♥ shift ??

[WGF_Flame]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-18, 08:36, said:

All that discouraging ♦ does is discourage ♦ continuation.

How is a ♣ shift obvious ? and not a ♥ shift ??

As I said, playing OS (obvious shift) its clear, as this is the all point of obvious shift.
http://www.bridgewit...viousShift.html

[gnasher]

How does OS improve on suit preference? It seems to me that you're not signalling about the diamond suit at all: you're simply playing "low = dummy's weaker suit, high = dummy's stronger suit (or no preference)". To me that seems no better than "low = dummy's lower suit, high = dummy's higher suit; with no preference signal for dummy's stronger suit".

[Free]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-18, 08:36, said:

All that discouraging ♦ does is discourage ♦ continuation.

How is a ♣ shift obvious ? and not a ♥ shift ??

OS is a set of rules that unambiguously determines a certain suit to be "THE obvious shift suit" (for example "shortest suit in NT" combined with "if there are 2 or more OS candidates, the lowest suit is the OS suit"). Discouraging the opening lead actually asks to switch to the OS suit. Discouraging with an unnecessary honor card asks to lead the remaining suit (never trumps). I think in this case ♥ is the OS suit, so to ask for a ♣ switch you'd need to play ♦Q at trick 1. If you want ♦ continued you encourage, and if you want a ♥ switch you just discourage ♦.

The terminology suggests a suit is obvious to switch to, but this hasn't got anything to do with actual card play theory (although the rules are made up so that it leans towards it). The point of not just playing something Lavinthal-like (discourage = lowest remaining suit ; unnecessary honor = highest remaining suit) is to avoid playing too many unnecessary honors for no good reason.

[aguahombre]

To me, the suit with XXX in dummy is the OS, not the suit with QX; playing the diamond queen would be a desparado play holding the heart Ace and the QJ of clubs because it risks establishment of the Diamond Jack.

[WGF_Flame]

gnasher, on 2013-March-18, 08:46, said:

How does OS improve on suit preference? It seems to me that you're not signalling about the diamond suit at all: you're simply playing "low = dummy's weaker suit, high = dummy's stronger suit (or no preference)". To me that seems no better than "low = dummy's lower suit, high = dummy's higher suit; with no preference signal for dummy's stronger suit".

1. OS is not ignoring the suit led (diamonds here) but give also high priority to the obvious shift suit and some lower priority to the other suits. in some cases both partners need to be careful, you should sometimes give the least damaging signal, for example with xxx in club as here assuming you don't have the A or K in club, it seems worse that partner will open club, you rather tell him to continue diamond, or just play passive. On the other side, the partner should not be too fast to open a suit if the tricks are not likely to run away.
2. you are right that OS doesn't do any magic of adding more information to the signals, what it does is clear for the partnership the priority of the suits, the example here is great, playing with an expert partner without OS, i would discourage diamond hoping for a club switch but partner might think i am looking for hearts. playing OS with a my inter/adv partner I would discourage and it would be clear to both of us what suit i'm looking for.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-18, 08:43, said:

As I said, playing OS (obvious shift) its clear, as this is the all point of obvious shift.
http://www.bridgewit...viousShift.html

Thx for the link .

If I understand it correctly, WEST will SHOW tolerance for an Obv Shift ( he would like a ♣ shift ) with an "Encouraging Discouraging ♦ card " ( either upside down or standard ) on the 1st trick .

EAST will find the ♣ shift because it is a 3 card suit headed by at most ONE honor ( either A, K, Q, J or 10 ) in his hand .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2013-March-19, 03:19

[jogs]

After the ♦A, play the ♣A no matter what West diamond played.
Now the club card from West will guide East.

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2013-March-18, 17:49, said:

After the ♦A, play the ♣A no matter what West diamond played.
Now the club card from West will guide East.

But, the guidance might come after East has already blown the contract, in addition to annoying partner who bothered to make his expert signal.

[jogs]

Exchange two cards with West and South.

West

♠ 5
♥ J74
♦ QJ642
♣ KQ84

Now West will play(?) the ♦Q on the opening ♦A.
It will still be right to play the ♣A on trick 2.

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2013-March-18, 21:20, said:

Exchange two cards with West and South.

West

♠ 5
♥ J74
♦ QJ642
♣ KQ84

Now West will play(?) the ♦Q on the opening ♦A.
It will still be right to play the ♣A on trick 2.

Actually it will break even with the correct play of a low club instead of the Ace.

Leading a low club gains when pard has:
--KJ(XX)
--JXXx or Qxxx plus the Heart ace or KJ

Leading the ace loses when Declarer has KQX or KJX and pard has a heart trick.

Shifting to any club loses when pard has a heart trick and the QJXXX of clubs, but doesn't lose the whole contract if pard only has QJXX.

[WGF_Flame]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-18, 10:40, said:

Thx for the link .

If I understand it correctly, WEST will SHOW tolerance for an Obv Shift ( he would like a ♣ shift ) with an "Encouraging ♦ card " ( either upside down or standard ) on the 1st trick .

EAST will find the ♣ shift because it is a 3 card suit headed by at most ONE honor ( either A, K, Q, J or 10 ) in his hand .

discouraging diamond shows tolerance for the obvious shift.

[Adebisi]

Common is to play that A lead asks suit preference, if u hold bare A or bare AK u know suit to follow to get ruff.In this case pd should play small d.But if u lead normal K , pd knows decl has 1 diamond and have to play discg 9.Now odds that in addition to your club ace pd has power in hearts is pretty small.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 01:15, said:

discouraging diamond shows tolerance for the obvious shift.

Thanks again ... I don't know how many times I read the reference, but I still got it wrong .... duh ( I corrected my post # 27 ).

Discourage = look for a shift

[bluecalm]

I see it as very simple hand.
We need to play high diamond to inform partner that we are not ruffing this suit (ie we don't want him to play K and another). That's all there is to signalling. If you start giving other meanings to low/high diamond here then you will miss very simple hands where we just ruff stuff.
I see giving preference to attitude in side suit instead of lead suit in this case as dubious at best and probably just silly.

2nd thing is that maybe W could consider playing Qd here seeing that there are only 2 diamonds (at most) to take anyway. This signal can only mean that W is not afraid of JTxx in dummy taking a trick and that could only be if 1 tempo is enough to establish our winners which in turn only be located in clubs.