[shnk]

2/1
1♥ - 1NT
3♣ - ?

3♥ here is stronger than 4♥.
Should 4♣ be stronger than 5♣?
Put another way, should 3♣ be 100% forcing to game or may we stop in 4♣?

[MrAce]

 shnk, on 2013-July-14, 03:27, said:

2/1
1♥ - 1NT
3♣ - ?

3♥ here is stronger than 4♥.
Should 4♣ be stronger than 5♣?
Put another way, should 3♣ be 100% forcing to game or may we stop in 4♣?

I am speaking for myself of course but 3♥ here does not even warrant a real 3 card support, let alone being a better raise than 4♥ to start with. It can later turn into a better raise than 4♥ of course but 3♥ alone at this point is an ambigious bid and i know a lot of expert players play it this way. I will not get into long explenations why in order to not hijack the topic.

But if i wanted to ask the difference, if any, between major and minor suit raises, i would have chosen a different auction, for example 2♣-2♦-2M-3/4M vs 2♣-2♦-3m-4/5m is one of them.

However i am aware that there are also a lot of pairs who plays 3♥ as a strong ♥ raise in the auction you posted.

Having said that, in your auction i play 5♣ raise as some sort of picture bid and warrants more than just 3 card support, rather than just showing weakness of my hcps.

[cherdano]

3♣ is 100% game-forcing but that doesn't mean that 4♣ is a slam try. Sometimes you are dealt a hand that has a raise of 3♣, but is happy to pass 1H-1N-3C-4C-4H; the 4H bid could be based on a 2623 hand or similar. 5♣ over 3♣ logically has to be a picture bid: you need good clubs to insist on clubs over hearts even opposite the manufactured jump shift; and it has to be specific so that partner knows when to go on.

[wank]

you're playing that 1nt can contain heart support? how strong if so?

either way, fast arrival is terrible here. i keep 4♥ for showing 3 card support, range depending on what 1nt could have, and 3♥ is just preference.

[wank]

oops

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 shnk, on 2013-July-14, 03:27, said:

2/1
1♥ - 1NT
3♣ - ?

3♥ here is stronger than 4♥.
Should 4♣ be stronger than 5♣?
Put another way, should 3♣ be 100% forcing to game or may we stop in 4♣?

1H - 1NTF
3C ( game force )
..... - ??
....... 3H = minimal hand, could be as little as 2 cards ♥
....... 4H = limit raise w/ 3 card support : a hand that would have jumped to 3H over a minimum rebid of say 2C .
....... 3D/3S = showing stop; probing for NT; no fit for either of partner's suits
................ ( some might play this as an advance cue for ♣ .. need prior agreement )
....... 3NT = stop in both unbid suits; perhaps the worst call to make unless partner's suits can run .
....... 4C = 4+ cards ♣; need prior agreement as to what is RKC .
....... ( 5C = not needed ) .

[Zelandakh]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-July-14, 13:39, said:

....... 4C = 4+ cards ♣; need prior agreement as to what is RKC .

Or 4♣ = 5 card raise and 3♦ (grope) followed by 4♣ = 4 card raise, as we have previously discussed.

[jogs]

 cherdano, on 2013-July-14, 03:49, said:

3♣ is 100% game-forcing

Are ppl still playing 100% game forcing? Haven't many
switched to forcing to 3NT or 4 of a suit?

[shnk]

 wank, on 2013-July-14, 08:09, said:

you're playing that 1nt can contain heart support? how strong if so?

either way, fast arrival is terrible here. i keep 4♥ for showing 3 card support, range depending on what 1nt could have, and 3♥ is just preference.

We go through 1NT (forcing) to show a 3 card limit raise. We also use a forcing 1NT with ~6-7 points and 3-4 card support (I realize that many don't like this "constructive raise" treatment).

It looks like I picked the wrong example to answer my question, but I'm glad because its clear our definitions in this auction were not ideal. I have changed our notes to reflect what you and others are saying here: 3H is now weak and may be only 2 cards, 4H shows 3 card support with limit raise values.

[shnk]

 MrAce, on 2013-July-14, 03:37, said:

But if i wanted to ask the difference, if any, between major and minor suit raises, i would have chosen a different auction, for example 2♣-2♦-2M-3/4M vs 2♣-2♦-3m-4/5m is one of them.

Thank you, I am going to create a new thread with those sequences.