[eagles123]

---

wasn't too sure what my best action was so just blasted 6 clubs, which luckily made However 6NT and 6S also made so weren't in the best spot (it was matchpoints.) Part of my reason for 6 clubs was that it's quite a poor standard so pretty much any slam will do well, for example on this hand 6/11 tables were in either 4 spades or 5 clubs, but I don't want to get lazy with slam bidding as I know i'll get crucified in this situation at a better level.

would I be better taking it slowly, i.e. starting with 4 clubs to see if partner can show anything in diamonds or was 6C ok

as a secondary question was my p's pass correct

---

thanks

eagles

[fbuijsen]

It is usually not a good idea to just ask aces, but this seems like an exception to me. Partner's strong bidding makes it odds on that 6NT will make as well. So I would just bid 4NT (RKC for spades, or whatever form you play), and folllowing a somewhat positive answer, blast 6NT. A direct 6NT is possible too. I see no good way to find out about all of partner's cards, so I'm not going to try. In IMPs I choose 6C like you did.

The problem with 4C and other attempts at the 4-level is that they are rather ambiguous, which makes it less clear what to make of partner's answers too. For example, is 4C a cue, or just really long clubs and very short spades?

Your partner's pass over 6C seems automatic.

[ArtK78]

First of all, 6♣ is not that bad of a contract. And 6♠ is a bad contract. 6NT by North is a better contract than 6♣ for 3 reasons - it makes whenever the clubs come in (in other words, 6NT will make anytime that 6♣ makes); 6NT scores better than 6♣; and 6NT has some additional chances - if the clubs don't come in you can try the spade suit if the opps have not taken that opportunity away from you.

As for the bidding, I can only assume that a 2♠ bid by opener would be nonforcing in your methods. Otherwise, I hate the 3♠ rebid. If 2♠ is forcing - even one round - the 3♠ rebid should be reserved for very strong spades suits. AKJxxx does not qualify. If partner's 3♠ bid shows a very strong suit, then you should not be jumping to 6♣. You have 3 very good cards - AK of hearts and the ♣A. You may be making a grand in spades or NT. Or a small slam in spades or NT might be best. The leap to 6♣ tells partner to pass under almost all circumstances. It might be made on a club suit of KQJTxxxxx with an outside card - in other words, a hand that is not very useful in a spade contract.

Keep in mind that the 3♠ bid says partner has long spades. His hand may look similar to yours with a different long suit.

All of the leaping turned the auction into a guessing contest. You wound up guessing better than most.

[eagles123]

yes 2S would be non-forcing, as 2C is not a game force just standard acol

[PhilKing]

I would start with a jump shift of 3♣. Your hand is huge!

That would probably lead to 6NT by South at pairs. As bid, it costs nothing to say 4♣ over 3♠, though it would make little difference here.

[eagles123]

I ALWAYS forget to do strong-jump-shifts

[mycroft]

Partner can't correct - you could have 1-1-3-8 or the like, and 6♣ is cold, while 6NT is off a few heart tricks. Or you could have the positional heart stopper, and you can make either 6♣ or 6NT, but *he* can't make them.

You pretty much guessed. If you're playing SJS, this is a great hand for it; if you're playing 2♠ is passable...well, that's why in most systems it isn't. It's one of the downsides of being able to 2/1 with the same hand without the ♥AK and with 2=7 in the blacks.

I would not have guessed; I would have bid 4♣, hoping partner figured out that "we didn't look for 3NT, this can't be fighting for a suit, it must be a slam try"; whether it is a club or a spade slam try shouldn't matter to him. Once you hear the diamond card, you can go Blackwooding. I probably would have been +170, too :-)

[eagles123]

mycroft, on 2013-October-15, 09:30, said:

Partner can't correct - you could have 1-1-3-8 or the like, and 6♣ is cold, while 6NT is off a few heart tricks. Or you could have the positional heart stopper, and you can make either 6♣ or 6NT, but *he* can't make them.

You pretty much guessed. If you're playing SJS, this is a great hand for it; if you're playing 2♠ is passable...well, that's why in most systems it isn't. It's one of the downsides of being able to 2/1 with the same hand without the ♥AK and with 2=7 in the blacks.

I would not have guessed; I would have bid 4♣, hoping partner figured out that "we didn't look for 3NT, this can't be fighting for a suit, it must be a slam try"; whether it is a club or a spade slam try shouldn't matter to him. Once you hear the diamond card, you can go Blackwooding. I probably would have been +170, too :-)

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

apart from in 2/1 how do other systems handle say

AKxxxx
Ax
xx
xx

opposite

xx
Jxx
Ajx
Axxxxx

with first hand as dealer?

[ArtK78]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 09:57, said:

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

apart from in 2/1 how do other systems handle say

AKxxxx
Ax
xx
xx

opposite

xx
Jxx
Ajx
Axxxxx

with first hand as dealer?

In typical 2/1 or Standard systems, the bidding would go:

1♠ - 1NT (whether forcing or not), as it is not good enough for 2♣.
2♠ - Pass or 3♠. Possibly 2NT, but you are known to have an 8 card spade fit, so you should probably play in spades. 3♣ would be to play, and passing 2♠ is likely to be at least as good if not better than bidding 3♣ to play.

But, then again, most systems are not geared to bidding 12 and 14 card hands. If you move a small card from responder's hand to opener's hand the bidding should be the same.

[akwoo]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 09:57, said:

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

apart from in 2/1 how do other systems handle say

AKxxxx
Ax
xx
xx

opposite

xx
Jxx
Ajx
Axxxxx

with first hand as dealer?

In standard american, you play in 3♠. (I think responder is barely strong enough for a 2♣ response.)

It's a little harder if responder's suit is diamonds, because then opener can have a minimum 5314 for the 2♠ rebid. Responder has a choice of 2N, 3D (possibly on a 6-1), or 3S (possibly on a 5-2) in that case.

[Zelandakh]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 09:57, said:

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

A common agreement appearing in several systems where 2/1 is not GF is that a 2/1 promises a rebid. The idea here is that if Responder is willing to make a 2/1 they should also be willing to make an invite over a minimum rebid. Playing such a method, your hands would be bid 1♠ - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♠ should Responder decide the hand is worth an invite (~11-12). If Responder does not feel the hand is worth this much then they have to respond 1NT. In this case a 2♠ rebid is not forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4C is better, ... a 6C bid buries 7C, and 6C can still be bid later

4C should set trumps, you may at one point in time tell partner,
that the partnership playes with spade has trumps, for the time
being 4C sets the suit, ... even when partner is looking a 0 clubs.

4C setting trumps requests cuebids.

That being said, bidding 6C to avoid getting stuck in a lower level
contract is not the worst thing to do, especially if you are not sure,
how partner would take 4C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 09:57, said:

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

apart from in 2/1 how do other systems handle say

AKxxxx
Ax
xx
xx

opposite

xx
Jxx
Ajx
Axxxxx

with first hand as dealer?

If you dont want to go completly from Acol to 2/1, you can play,
that a 2/1 response is forcing upto 2NT.

Using this agreement, and assuming weak NT, and that you dont open 1NT
with 5332, the auction would go

1S - 2C
2S - 3C
all pass

If you open 5322 with 1NT, than 2S would promise 6 spades, and responder
knowes, that the partnership has 8 spades

1S - 2C
2S - 3S
all pass

Making this agreement, wont make a lot of difference, to the way peoble usually
play Acol, but simplifies some auctions.
In the end partnership has at least 22-23HCP between them, so 2NT or a 3 level
contract should have some play.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

4♣ is certainly better and you may find out that pard has 7 spades and a club void.

[RSClyde]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 08:21, said:

I ALWAYS forget to do strong-jump-shifts

I always forget that there are people who play strong jump shifts.

[wank]

That's a pretty idiotic comment. They're inctedibly useful when they come up. The problem is their infrequency, not an issue of efficacy,.

[Fluffy]

eagles123, on 2013-October-15, 09:57, said:

Hi, thanks for comments, I'm intrigued though by "most systems 2S is forcing"

apart from in 2/1 how do other systems handle say

AKxxxx
Ax
xx
xx

opposite

xx
Jxx
Ajx
Axxxxx

with first hand as dealer?

if responder has 6 clubs (he has 14 cards) the bidding is 1♠-2♣-2♠-3♣-pass I know it looks odd to pass 3♣ but the only part score that can be played when there is an invitation is the last one bid (Except 2NT which allows to 3 level ones)



If responder has 5 clubs the bidding can start in 2 ways:

1♠-1NT
2♠

1♠-2♣
2♠-2NT

On the first one pass and raise 3♠ are possible alternatives for responder.

On the last one opener should sing off in 3♠.

[RSClyde]

wank, on 2013-October-18, 16:47, said:

That's a pretty idiotic comment. They're inctedibly useful when they come up. The problem is their infrequency, not an issue of efficacy,.

If you're talking about my comment, I'm not sure where you got that I said they weren't useful. Infrequency is reason enough to consider that there may be a better use for a bid.