[rmnka447]

My best partner and I regularly open 4 loser Major hands and 3 loser Minor hands with a strong and artificial 2 ♣. But we play very disciplined positive responses. 2 ♦ waiting bid. Cheapest suit second negative.

So we would have no problem opening this hand 2 ♣.

[kenberg]

Perhaps everything has been said about this hand, but let me suggest a problem. Whether you open this hand 1♠ or 2♣, I am thinking you would like to stay out of slam if either the ♥K is the ♥Q or the ♣Q is the ♣J. In either case, the slam might make but all in all I would happily settle for being in 4♠ or 5♠ after a slam try convinces me to give it up. So my question is: Is it easier or harder to get to 6 with the hands as they are but stop in 5 with these minimal alterations if we open 2♣ instead of 1♠? And who makes this choice, opener or responder?

I and I believe others have said that if we were to (though we wouldn't) open this 2♣ our main reason would be that we fear partner will pass 1♠ on a four count or so and we will score up 170. If my long suit was in hearts and my stiff was in spades, I would certainly open 1♥. This never (well hardly ever) gets passed out at the 1 level. 1♠ is significantly more likely to be passed out. . Still, I think I open a nervous 1♠.

So my thinking at my first bid is not on slam. Opening 2♣ would get us to game except in the auction 2♣-2♦(waiting)-2♠-3♣(second neg)-3♠-Pass. On this auction, a nine trick contract is plenty.

This deal, partner actually has something to contribute and so we have the problem of slam, to go or not to go. Does starting with 2♣ really help in this decision? I think not really.

[gwnn]

kenberg, on 2014-January-06, 09:55, said:

I am not sure what gwnn is gettng at with his worry about a 3♣ call on AK. Suppose resonder has the hand originally posted with the AKx of diamonds. He bids 2♣. No, I don't raise to 3♣. I just rebid 2♠. No rush, and this suit does not qualify for 3♠ imo. With that original hand, with AKx of diamonds, I think it goes 1♠-2♣-2♠-2NT-3♠-4♠-4NT etc. There are twelve easy tricks, 13 if the spade hook is on, and I can't see any problems in the bidding or the play.

I was talking about SteveMoe's post without quoting him (bad habit) about 1S-1NT; 3C on AK tight of clubs. My post could be reworded as "if some people consider jump shifting in a doubleton, it's usually a sign that a 2C opening is a good alternative." But yes, 1S then 4D is a good alternative, except if things get competitive you may get screwed.

[nige1]

dickiegera, on 2014-January-04, 22:41, said:

Made 7. King of spades on side singleton.
We should be in 6♠.
How to bid? Open 2♣?

---

IMO 1♠ = 10, 2♣ = 9. Playing Acol, 1♠ - 2♣ is fine but I believe that some pairs are still wedded to 2/1. Playing 2/1, 1♠ - 1N is enough. Two4Bridge and MrAce seem to have a sensible solution: 1♠ - 1N - 4♦(Splinter).
Playing Gazzilli, what's the difference between Two4Bridge's auction and 1♠ -1N - 2♣ - 2♦ - 4♦?

• The former, could show a weaker hand.
• Alternatively the latter could show a singleton, the former a void

[the_clown]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-January-05, 08:53, said:

1S - 1NT! ( forcing 1 round ... playing 2/1 GF )
4D! ( self-splinter* for ♠, showing good, long ♠ suit )
..... - 4H ( Ctrl-cue accepting ♠ as trump )
4NT - 5D ( 1 or 4 )
6S
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* [ EDIT addition ] : Since 3D would be a forcing bid, then 4D! is the generic definition of a splinter = " a jump over a forcing suit bid -- agreeing the last bid suit ( ♠ in this case ) " .

A self splinter would work pretty well here, but I am not sure I would do it with such a broken suit when partner has maximum 2 cards. For me a self splinter would show a suit that can play reasonably well opposite a stiff.

[kenberg]

gwnn, on 2014-January-07, 11:17, said:

I was talking about SteveMoe's post without quoting him (bad habit) about 1S-1NT; 3C on AK tight of clubs. My post could be reworded as "if some people consider jump shifting in a doubleton, it's usually a sign that a 2C opening is a good alternative." But yes, 1S then 4D is a good alternative, except if things get competitive you may get screwed.

Ah, got it. I am more than willing to agree that jump shifting on a doubleton is asking for trouble. As for competiton, people do come in aover 2♣ as well, and if I start with a spade at least I have said something about a suit.

But I am fine with either 2♣ or 1♠. I would choose 1♠ but I don't feel strongly about it.

[gwnn]

kenberg, on 2014-January-07, 13:00, said:

Ah, got it. I am more than willing to agree that jump shifting on a doubleton is asking for trouble. As for competiton, people do come in aover 2♣ as well, and if I start with a spade at least I have said something about a suit.

But I am fine with either 2♣ or 1♠. I would choose 1♠ but I don't feel strongly about it.

Bidding 2♣ and rebidding spades on the minimum level seems like a better description to me than bidding 1♠ and then I suppose cuebidding or jumping to 4♠ or who knows what. But I know all this discussion is partly circular. Still I don't know why some people wait for 20 HCP or some other magic number to open 2♣. This hand is really good.

[fromageGB]

gwnn, on 2014-January-07, 15:40, said:

... Still I don't know why some people wait for 20 HCP or some other magic number to open 2♣. This hand is really good.

There are plenty of really good declarative hands that do not have the defensive strength I choose to assign to a 2♣ open. If I open 2♣ and in the course of the bidding the opposition make a high level bid, I like partner to be in a position to make a judgement as to the efficacy of a penalty double. If there are potentially much fewer than 20 then he is not in that position.

You could substitute a "defensive tricks" number for the hcp number if you wish, but it amounts to much the same thing and hcp are easier.

The magic number is a guide, but the principle is that if you need partner to have the values to respond to a 1-level open in order for you to expect to make game, then you can open at the 1-level. If you are going to miss a making game when he passes a 1-level open, then you need to open 2♣. That boundary is at about 20 hcp in general.

Another factor is the information you can convey in the bidding; a 1-level bid gives more opportunity than a 2♣ bid. Sometimes this information is critical, as in this hand.

[MrAce]

gwnn, on 2014-January-07, 15:40, said:

Bidding 2♣ and rebidding spades on the minimum level seems like a better description to me than bidding 1♠ and then I suppose cuebidding or jumping to 4♠ or who knows what. But I know all this discussion is partly circular. Still I don't know why some people wait for 20 HCP or some other magic number to open 2♣. This hand is really good.

I don't wait 20 hcp, i wait 22 hcp or 9 tricks in major suit. Loser count people can set themself a different criteria to open 2♣. just like numeric said in the past (if i am not wrong) something like "i dunno much about losing tricks except than that i do not need to know it" 4 loser is not even close to 9 winner hand. Especially when your trump/long trick source suit is full of holes. People open 2♣ because they usually can not handle strong 1 level openings afterwards.And sometimes 1 level opening simply kills all our chances to reach slam.


When you have a positional good hand and resulting by jumping to 2♣ rescue boat, you ignore other possibilities that could have happened. I know when we have a slam it is much easier to reach it after 2♣.But it comes with price. this way you will also reach slam with a lot of hands that is not even close to slam. Or when you have positional hand and god forbid if they have too, things get really messy pretty quick. You may disappoint your pd in a heated auction etc etc.

You open 2♣, pd knows your strength, but does not know if it is due to source of tricks or due to power when they preempt. he does not even know what your trump is at 3-4-5 level.
You open 1♠ pd will not know your strength, but will know your trump.

People choose one or the other depending on their own experiences and which one they are comfy with.You know i am hardly a bean counter from my posts in general

[monikrazy]

2c open seems best. KNR rates this 21.4. And it meets the standard of >8 tricks in a a major or 9 of a minor.

Its difficult to fully describe the strength of your hand otherwise starting with 1S and not using namyats.

My auction:

2C - 2D (positive, promises 2 queens or better)
2S - 3C
3S - 4N
5D (3 or 0) - 6S


or w/ namyats:

4D - 4H - 4N - 5C - 6S

[mycroft]

For how many people is this hand a 2♣ opener, but the same hand with the majors reversed isn't? I know I'd be leaning toward that, for my standard reason (when they've shown their 10-card spade fit, and we've shown enough strength for game *and nothing else*, what do I do?)

[Lovera]

dickiegera, on 2014-January-05, 08:15, said:

---

Sorry, I had East hand wrong. No King of diamonds. Only 10 pts. We play 2/1 so a 2♣ bid was not available

The valutation of this hand is 22 points (distributional) too strong for 1♠ - 3♠ (max 19 p.) whilest for 2♣ 20 points (counting only longness) then having 4 losers (see "Counting Quick Tricks or.." in "Find my content") x5=20 and being pair (or inferior points) i open 2♣. Probably partner bids 3♣, i bid 3♠ p. 4♣ showing 5/+ cards and by 4NT we have information about high cards ( with RKCB to correct )

[FrancesHinden]

I like opening 1S and then the auto-splinter. East will probably drive slam over that.
While I wouldn't open the hand 2C, if I did there's no way I wouldn't end in slam. But that's because I expect a 2C opening to deliver more, so East would do more bidding.

[MrAce]

I don't understand which part of self splinter people do not understand?


Looking at E hand;
-I have 5 hcp more than my possible minimum strength. This is about AJ or KQ more than your possible minimum values.
-I have 2nd most desirable holding in splinter suit
-I have Jx in the trump suit, where my pd told me that he will play 4♠ regardless of what I hold in that suit.

When will I be going to slam over a self splinter, if not with this?

TWO4BRIDGE nailed this one. I upvoted the guy when I first saw his reply, but now I want to upvote him the 2nd time since there seems still too many people who can not see the very simple-basic and effective and natural method, even after he showed it. If you can not reach to this type of slams unless you open 2♣, I feel bad for you.Sorry. Because this is not even a hard one. There are way too many, more difficult to bid hands than this, even after a self splinter, where opener does not even have a resemblance of 2♣ opener.

[whereagles]

I would open 2♣, not because I think it's best but because I dislike most "standard" rebid methods.

[gszes]

I like the self splinter approach as long as it is also a requirement p
lend some minimal spade help. After 1s 1n 4d responder has a superb hand
and should have an easy 4h cue to show positive response followed by 4n
gets you to 6s. If your spades are more self sufficient you will have to
make some sort of jump shift and later convert to spades to show your hand
power.

[nige1]

dickiegera, on 2014-January-04, 22:41, said:

Made 7. King of spades on side singleton.
We should be in 6♠.
How to bid? Open 2♣?
Opinions please.

---

Second thoughts after reading other comments here and in a parallel thread on a similar decision.
Perhaps 2♣ = 10, 1♠ = 9. Styles differ.
Game is good opposite a balanced Yarborough e.g. ♠ x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x x x x
Slam is good opposite a suitable 5 count e.g. ♠ K 9 x ♥ x x ♦ x x x ♣ Q x x x x
If they know that you systemically open at the one level with 9 or more playing tricks, perhaps opponents should be chary about protecting.. Hence. If your partner is liable to pass with fewer than 6 HCP then, IMO, you should consider opening 2♣.

[ArtK78]

nige1, on 2014-October-13, 08:06, said:

Second thoughts after reading other comments here and in a parallel thread on a similar decision.
Perhaps 2♣ = 10, 1♠ = 9. Styles differ.
Game is good opposite a balanced Yarborough e.g. ♠ x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x x x x
Slam is good opposite a suitable 5 count e.g. ♠ K 9 x ♥ x x ♦ x x x ♣ Q x x x x
If they know that you systemically open at the one level with 9 or more playing tricks, perhaps opponents should be chary about protecting.. Hence. If your partner is liable to pass with fewer than 6 HCP then, IMO, you should consider opening 2♣.

Yes, game is good opposite a yarborough with short hearts and 3 spades. What are the odds of that?

And you say that slam is good opposite the right 5 count - again, long spades (this time Kxx), short hearts and Qxxxx of clubs. Even if you find this miracle hand, you are going to need 2-1 spades and clubs no worse than 4-2, and the spades spots in dummy will have to be good enough to provide a second entry. And the fact that partner has short hearts (but not a singleton) is not relevant, as you have a diamond loser off the top so you can't afford to lose a heart trick.

In any case, I am not as confident as you are that game is going to be good opposite nothing or that slam is going to be good opposite a minimal hand that cannot cooperate in a slam going auction.

[fromageGB]

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:48, said:

Yes, game is good opposite a yarborough with short hearts and 3 spades. What are the odds of that?

Extremely poor.

[nige1]

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:48, said:

Yes, game is good opposite a yarborough with short hearts and 3 spades. What are the odds of that?

If partner has a good hand, we face different problems. Poor hands are unlikely but they do occur. When they do there is no more merit in missing a good game than there is in getting too high.

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:48, said:

And you say that slam is good opposite the right 5 count - again, long spades (this time Kxx), short hearts and Qxxxx of clubs. Even if you find this miracle hand, you are going to need 2-1 spades and clubs no worse than 4-2, and the spades spots in dummy will have to be good enough to provide a second entry.

Nobody claimed you can make game/slam with any poor dummy. Nevertheless, opposite opener's actual ♠ holding, any 3 ♠s provide an entry if ♠s are 2-1. The slam example dummy has ♠ K9x so that you have a second entry unless RHO has 3 ♠s. Even in that eventuality, you still make if ♣s break favourably. IMO, most players would be delighted to reach such slams.

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:48, said:

And the fact that partner has short hearts (but not a singleton) is not relevant, as you have a diamond loser off the top so you can't afford to lose a heart trick.

The constructions were just a couple of suitable weak dummies. No intention to endow every pip with significance.

ArtK78, on 2014-October-13, 08:48, said:

In any case, I am not as confident as you are that game is going to be good opposite nothing or that slam is going to be good opposite a minimal hand that cannot cooperate in a slam going auction.

IMO, game/slam is good opposite suitable minimal hands. Opportunities for co-operation in exploring game/slam are reduced if an unimaginative partner and conservative opponents might pass out 1♠.