[Jinksy]

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Teams of 4 against a pretty strong N and a fairly weak S. 2S was a regular weak (non-Lucas 2). (hands rotated)

This hand prompted several disagreements, though I’m not sure if anything really went wrong. Both partners will bid a weak 2 on a five card suit at this vul 1st in, but the first dispute was over whether this was the right hand type on which to do so. Anyway, here are the points of dispute, all separated:

1) How do you rate the 2S bid (vs pass)?
2i) Is it a good slam looking at the NS cards? (It’s got too many variables for me to confidently calculate even in hindsight – I’m guessing it’s marginally pro?)
2ii) Do you think NS should have bid slam given a) an initial pass, b) the 2S bid?
2iii) If yes to both 2i and 2ii, assign the blame for not reaching it.
3) N bid 3C as lead-directing, forcing to 3S. S believed that 4D would give a better chance of finding a slam and that 3D (nominally natural) would be a better lead-directing bid, that might also keep them out of 5D if it was the par result. Can you order these three bids (and any others you feel are in the running) by preference?

[Trinidad]

I wouldn't worry too much about missing 20 HCP slams. On a trump lead and a trump return (after the opponents get in with a club honor) the slam doesn't look so good anymore anyway.

Rik

[WellSpyder]

 Trinidad, on 2014-January-28, 08:54, said:

On a trump lead and a trump return (after the opponents get in with a club honor) the slam doesn't look so good anymore anyway.

Good point. But oppo may not be able to win the club in the right hand to continue trumps without giving you a favourable option in clubs (eg a ruffing finesse).

[Cyberyeti]

 WellSpyder, on 2014-January-28, 08:59, said:

Good point. But oppo may not be able to win the club in the right hand to continue trumps without giving you a favourable option in clubs (eg a ruffing finesse).

Exactly, if a small club is led from N, it's desperately difficult for E to play an unsupported king.

You need to decide whether 4m is fit or splinter and bid whichever minor is indicated. 4♦ will excite partner a lot with 4 small diamonds and controls in the other side suits.

I'd suggest the slam is odds against double dummy, but probably slight favourite at the table.

[PhilKing]

South does not have a weak two. I have no objection to a five-card suit, but the hand should be pure, rather than packed with defence and playable in 3 strains.

North does not have a slam try. Take 4♦ (the most descriptive - 3♣ is ludicrous), say South has:

♠KJTxxx
♥Ax
♦xx
♣Jxx

When you go off in five, partner will think (rightly) that you are mad. Yes, you could make opposite a perfecto, but if you chase rainbows, expect to get wet.

[the_clown]

1) Whether you open a weak 2 or not depends on your style. With 1 partner we regularly open weak 2s with 5+cards but we have the methods to find out if partner has 5 or 6 cards, shortness etc. Playing with anyone else I would pass in a flash.
3) 3♣ is really poor IMO, you have the spades so its unlikely you want to defend. And if they play in hearts, you want a diamond lead not ♣

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilKing, on 2014-January-28, 10:42, said:

South does not have a weak two. I have no objection to a five-card suit, but the hand should be pure, rather than packed with defence and playable in 3 strains.

North does not have a slam try. Take 4♦ (the most descriptive - 3♣ is ludicrous), say South has:

♠KJTxxx
♥Ax
♦xx
♣Jxx

When you go off in five, partner will think (rightly) that you are mad. Yes, you could make opposite a perfecto, but if you chase rainbows, expect to get wet.

Why, 2♠-4♦(splinter)-4♥(cue)-4♠ and nobody has a club control, so many people stop there.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 11:08, said:

Why, 2♠-4♦(splinter)-4♥(cue)-4♠ and nobody has a club control, so many people stop there.

Since when a singleton is called not a stopper ? After splinter i think S has a huge hand (if splinter promised 4+ card support of course. ( xxxx is as best as it gets vs a splinter + a side ace which is possible but usually unexpected and which makes it 2 keycards. Only thing seems to be the lack of 6th trump and that is why it is important how many spades did N promise by splinter) I think S will not stop before 5 level after splinter.

[PhilKing]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 11:08, said:

Why, 2♠-4♦(splinter)-4♥(cue)-4♠ and nobody has a club control, so many people stop there.

Only bad players.

[Cyberyeti]

 MrAce, on 2014-January-28, 12:24, said:

Since when a singleton is called not a stopper ? After splinter i think S has a huge hand (if splinter promised 4+ card support of course. ( xxxx is as best as it gets vs a splinter + a side ace which is possible but usually unexpected and which makes it 2 keycards. Only thing seems to be the lack of 6th trump and that is why it is important how many spades did N promise by splinter) I think S will not stop before 5 level after splinter.

Read the post you're replying to, this is in reply to Phil's posted hand with Jxx which I quoted, the club suit is Jxx/Q10xxx.

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilKing, on 2014-January-28, 17:49, said:

Only bad players.

Or players without sophisticated agreements that 4♥ is something other than a straight cue, I'd wager nobody within about 50 miles of me has that agreement.

[PhilKing]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 17:52, said:

Or players without sophisticated agreements that 4♥ is something other than a straight cue, I'd wager nobody within about 50 miles of me has that agreement.

This is way over my head. With I hand I consider to be more or less the nuts (to recap ♠KJTxxx ♥Ax ♦xx ♣Jxx)
,I would be stupid enough to soldier on to the five level. Partner did not expect me to have the world's fair - a splinter opposite a weak two does not ask if I have controls in all three suit!

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-28, 17:50, said:

Read the post you're replying to, this is in reply to Phil's posted hand with Jxx which I quoted, the club suit is Jxx/Q10xxx.

Sorry my bad, i thought OP hand

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilKing, on 2014-January-28, 18:02, said:

This is way over my head. With I hand I consider to be more or less the nuts (to recap ♠KJTxxx ♥Ax ♦xx ♣Jxx)
,I would be stupid enough to soldier on to the five level. Partner did not expect me to have the world's fair - a splinter opposite a weak two does not ask if I have controls in all three suit!

Hang on, partner splintered in diamonds then heard you bid 4♥ and signed off in 4♠ rather than going beyond, what else might he need other than a club control to be worth a slam try ? you've already bid every card in your hand.

[nate_m]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-29, 13:27, said:

Hang on, partner splintered in diamonds then heard you bid 4♥ and signed off in 4♠ rather than going beyond, what else might he need other than a club control to be worth a slam try ? you've already bid every card in your hand.

Partner should not be making slam tries opposite a weak 2 missing KJ of trumps and needing controls in both remaining suits. Passing 4♠ seems nuts to me. Partner's 4♠ after splinter shows a mild slam try and you hold what is basically the best hand possible.

[mcphee]

Not fond of the opening 2S due to playable H so I would have passed this. If the first hand does pass I am sure that the opponents will enter the bidding.

I think 3C is a waste and like 4D much more and if I heard that as the 2S bidder I would key card. I can't imagine not having a play for a slam should partner splinter and feel a 4H cue bid means you are just not paying attention, your junk shop just became a gold mine.

[Cyberyeti]

 nate_m, on 2014-January-29, 16:05, said:

Partner should not be making slam tries opposite a weak 2 missing KJ of trumps and needing controls in both remaining suits. Passing 4♠ seems nuts to me. Partner's 4♠ after splinter shows a mild slam try and you hold what is basically the best hand possible.

Sorry, I don't understand, you've told him you have A♥ or a singleton/void and you presumably have K♠, and he's still not prepared to commit beyond 4♠, he needs something else and whatever it is you don't have it.

[aguahombre]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-30, 09:02, said:

Sorry, I don't understand, you've told him you have A♥ or a singleton/void and you presumably have K♠, and he's still not prepared to commit beyond 4♠, he needs something else and whatever it is you don't have it.

I hope you are still referring to Phil's example and not the OP's.

[c_corgi]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-30, 09:02, said:

Sorry, I don't understand, you've told him you have A♥ or a singleton/void and you presumably have K♠, and he's still not prepared to commit beyond 4♠, he needs something else and whatever it is you don't have it.

Over 4D you have owned up to a heart control (assuming not playing last train). You haven't really made a value judgement yet. From partner's POV you could have ♠KJTxxx ♥Q ♦Jxx ♣Jxx. This hand might make a cooperative cue and respect a signoff and partner must allow for it. Phil's example hand is obviously much better and you need to let partner know if that is what you hold.

Partner's splinter followed by a signoff doesn't mean "I have a slam drive, but no control in the unbid suit", it means "We have slam values if you have a suitable hand, but I am not worth the 5 level myself. If you have a suitable hand bid on, then we can check for controls/KC etc. as appropriate."

[Lovera]

The hand of South doesn't allow 2♠ bidding (underopening, one suit 6/+) and also seeing (=double dummy) to get slam needs 2-1spade and club honors divided between opp 3-4.. Too many conditions to realize.(Lovera)