[Wackojack]

Love all; Over RHO 1♦, you make a pre-emptive weak jump overcall of 3♣. The bidding goes: 1♦-(3♣)-p-(p);
3♦-(p)-p-(x)

What kind of hand does your partner have for the double? What action is expected from you?

Discussion:
1. On the principle that the double of an overcall of a pre-empt should be for penalties, then could this also be for penalties? Could partner have something like, ♠ AQxx, ♥ AKx ,♦ QJ109, ♣xx and didn’t shoot 3N the first time round?

2. Could it be that partner has a strong hand something like ♠ Kxxx, ♥ AKJx , ♦ Jxx, ♣Ax and with no ♦ stop didn’t see game as likely? And now wanting to compete is asking you to do something intelligent? Then presumably you would bid in priority order:
(i) Unlikely but should you have a 4 card major then bid it.
(ii) Unlikely but should you have ♦Kx or ♦Qxx then bid 3NT.
(iii) Should you have a 3 card major feature Qxx or better then bid it.
(iv) With none of these then bid 4♣.

Views?

If partner did have hand 2 and you bid 3♥ or 3♠ after the double what should he bid next?

[whereagles]

Pard will not be asking you to do something intelligent when he knows about 90% of your hand.

Dbl is "this contract suits me fine".

[eagles123]

I know I am biased cos I know the hand and I bow to my superiors, but I don't understand how a hand that passed 3c can now suddenly have a pure penalty X of 3d?

given that the 3d bidder is a good player, what hand is partner meant to have?

[Vampyr]

eagles123, on 2014-November-05, 05:55, said:

I know I am biased cos I know the hand and I bow to my superiors, but I don't understand how a hand that passed 3c can now suddenly have a pure penalty X of 3d?

given that the 3d bidder is a good player, what hand is partner meant to have?

What do you expect partner to have done over 3♣? Raise? Bid 3NT? Partner will probably have one or two small clubs, or even Jx/Qx, depending on your style. Good diamonds and cards in the majors will not produce enough tricks for 3NT in this situation; clubs will have to run as well.

[mcphee]

I am unsure of the pre-emptive agreements but for me I would not believe this was pure penalty unless the 3D bidder has proven to be mentally unstable over the past few hands. I expect partner to hold 5/4 or longer majors and 2 pups in clubs. I hand not good enough to bid over 3!C pre-empt. It just seems impossible they hold a penalty double.

[helene_t]

All doubles opposite a preempt are penalties. Here it is especially lucrative because opps don't need to have a fit. With six diamonds by opener, doubler could have up to seven of them. Maybe he would not double with that because opps might run to a major. A 4450 16-count would be ideal.

[whereagles]

eagles123, on 2014-November-05, 05:55, said:

I don't understand how a hand that passed 3c can now suddenly have a pure penalty X of 3d?

Unless one likes to play 3NT on 20 HCP and a misfit, that actually happens very often


Here's an example: AKxx QJxx KJTx x.

[gszes]

While I normally "hate" x as penalty IN FRONT of the player with the known
long suit, I can see the utility here as the target for a tox here is so small
it seems almost unreasonable (AJTxx AJTxx xxx void since partner now has good
reason to assume we have a major suit fit). Even seeing this tiny target it
still seems almost reasonable to exchange a penalty x for tox but I can also
see the upside as penalty looking for a big score where one was probably not
available otherwise.

What would I do with the major suit hand? sigh I would probably bid 3h and
either run to 3s or xx depending on how the bidding went then hope (all the
while wishing I had been playing tox:)

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2014-November-05, 08:32, said:

Unless one likes to play 3NT on 20 HCP and a misfit, that actually happens very often


Here's an example: AKxx QJxx KJTx x.

Yep, when partner preempts 3 something, we don't knee jerk 3NT without a vision (hope) of 9 tricks. Not many hands with shortness in Pard's suit can see 9 tricks.

[eagles123]

Ok I have been convinced that X would be pens. This leaves me rather depressed.

---

people can say they would never bid 3c with a 4 card spade suit or whatever but I put easts hand on bridgewinners and it's pretty unanimously in favour of bidding 3c.

is there anything anyone can do at any point or is it just destined for a bad score

Thanks

Eagles

[whereagles]

well, you can try bidding 4♣, on grounds that pard is likely to have a diamond singleton and 7 clubs.

[aguahombre]

Just because a lot of people might bid 3♣ holding 4 baby spades doesn't mean we want a method to go looking for that 4-4 fit. When partner wants to show a club preempt, he/she is resigned to pretending a 7-card suit; so we pretend to believe it. Bid 4C if you want, but don't make up some takeout that can't be one.