[blackshoe]

Playing 2/1, the uncontested auction goes 1♥-2♣-2♥-3♠. What do opener and responder have?

[mike777]

Opener has:

Jxx..AJxxxx...AQx....x

responder has:

x....Kxx...Kxx...AKQxxx

Many play it shows 6 but most on forums play it only shows 5, you pick.

[Bbradley62]

Many people play that 2♥ is the default rebid after 2♣, so it would not necessarily show a 6th heart, and it would deny 4 diamonds.

Edit: But I agree that opener has a minimum and responder has 3card support and spade shortness.

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2014-June-03, 17:44

[aguahombre]

There is no strength expectation for the opening bidder at this point. In 2/1, Opener didn't need to be bouncing around with extras. All we know are negative distributional inferences from failure to raise clubs, rebid 2NT or rebid 2D. We can judge the shape AND strength of Responder, however. She should be short in spades and MINIMUM for the game-forcing values with heart support.

[kenrexford]

What kind of idiot system rebid 2H with 5 rather than 2D with 3? Off topic, perhaps, but geez.

[Mbodell]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-03, 19:11, said:

There is no strength expectation for the opening bidder at this point. In 2/1, Opener didn't need to be bouncing around with extras. All we know are negative distributional inferences from failure to raise clubs, rebid 2NT or rebid 2D. We can judge the shape AND strength of Responder, however. She should be short in spades and MINIMUM for the game-forcing values with heart support.

Why the min for responder? Why can't x Kxx Kxx AKQxxx or x KQx xx AQJxxxx or whatever still apply?

[aguahombre]

Mbodell, on 2014-June-03, 21:08, said:

Why the min for responder? Why can't x Kxx Kxx AKQxxx or x KQx xx AQJxxxx or whatever still apply?

Because we believe splinters which waste a lot of room should be well-defined as to range and that with slam aspirations we can establish trumps at our leasure and go for it. That is the beauty of 2/1... to get at least one hand set per size/shape, set strain, and get on with life.

There are later toys (serious/non-serious) available for the cases where that can't happen..and perameters for continuations when it can happen.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-03, 21:13, said:

Because we believe splinters which waste a lot of room should be well-defined as to range and that with slam aspirations we can establish trumps at our leasure and go for it. That is the beauty of 2/1... to get at least one hand set per size/shape, set strain, and get on with life.

There are later toys (serious/non-serious) available for the cases where that can't happen..and perameters for continuations when it can happen.

And what, pray tell, if the partnership is not expert enough, or experienced enough, or knowledgeable enough, or all of the above, to have included these "later toys" in their repertoire? Or must everyone who plays "2/1" immediately adopt all possible gadgets?

[Zelandakh]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-03, 21:13, said:

Because we believe splinters which waste a lot of room should be well-defined as to range and that with slam aspirations we can establish trumps at our leasure and go for it.

Do you not play that a splinter followed by a key card ask is XRKCB on this sequence? I thought that was part of your meta rules.

blackshoe, on 2014-June-03, 22:32, said:

And what, pray tell, if the partnership is not expert enough, or experienced enough, or knowledgeable enough, or all of the above, to have included these "later toys" in their repertoire?

It is not uncommon to agree that splinters should have a fairly narrow range and that a hand with extras but not enough to force past game has to find an alternative route. I think agua is simply meaning to describe this style rather than a range of unusual gadgets.

[aguahombre]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-04, 03:32, said:

Do you not play that a splinter followed by a key card ask is XRKCB on this sequence? I thought that was part of your meta rules.

Not likely after a 2/1 and a default rebid by opener. Responder wouldn't have bothered showing her side length if all she wanted to do at the outset was establish XRKCB.

However, the possibility of a "break" takeover by the one who splintered is not something partner need be concerned about. The splinter is taken at the time as a limited action relinquishing captaincy.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2014-June-04, 08:45

[blackshoe]

Cat out of the bag. What partner was trying to do was show her two suits and very strong hand. These were the hands. I was North:

---

I did not alert 3♠ when partner bid it. After partner bid 4♦ I bid 4♥, then realized that partner had jumped, and called the director. One of the opponents said 'you should talk to him away from the table'. I didn't. When he arrived I said "I failed to alert one of partner's bids". Both opponents immediately insisted they didn't want to know what it meant, or even, presumably which bid it was. My partner got up and moved away from the table while the director was talking to us. Eventually he walked over to see what she wanted, both came back to the table, he told EW to call him back at the end of the hand if they felt damaged, and told us to play on. I made 6NT for, strangely, 10.21 of 14 matchpoints. Opponents did not call the director back.

The ruling aspects aren't what prompted me to post this. It was partner's insistence (during the clarification period, though she didn't call the director back — he may have still been there; I know he stayed around for a bit, but I don't remember when he left) that 3♠ was not a splinter. I was surprised - it seemed an obvious splinter in 2/1 to me, once I realized she had jumped. We haven't yet had a chance to talk about it. Hopefully I'll remember to do so before next week's session.

NB: we do not play "last train" or EKCB or "serious" (or non-serious) 3NT. We do play 4NT as 1430 RKCB, regardless which suit is trumps.

[Zelandakh]

Do you play strong jump shifts? It seems that your partner wants to play a second round jump to mean "I would have made a SJS if we were playing them". That does not seem like a great idea, effectively negating some of the advantages in 2/1, but it might be smart just to agree for the number of hands it is going to come up. One subtle idea might be to give partner a perfect hand for a splinter and use it in a practise bidding session. You might find partner wants 3♠ to have both meanings!

[blackshoe]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-04, 09:32, said:

Do you play strong jump shifts? It seems that your partner wants to play a second round jump to mean "I would have made a SJS if we were playing them". That does not seem like a great idea, effectively negating some of the advantages in 2/1, but it might be smart just to agree for the number of hands it is going to come up. One subtle idea might be to give partner a perfect hand for a splinter and use it in a practise bidding session. You might find partner wants 3♠ to have both meanings!

We do not play weak jump shifts, even in competition. We do play some of "Bergen Raises", so 3♣ would be constructive with 4 trumps, and not a SJS.

Seems to me 2♠ (instead of 3) over 2♥ would be a reverse, showing her shape and not limiting her hand.

It may be that she thinks splinters only apply on the first round of bidding. We'll see.

[the hog]

kenrexford, on 2014-June-03, 20:15, said:

What kind of idiot system rebid 2H with 5 rather than 2D with 3? Off topic, perhaps, but geez.

What kind of idiot system bid 2D with 3 rather than limit the hand with 2H?. Geez.

[wank]

of course your partner is clueless

[ArtK78]

I agree that the second round jump should be a splinter raise of hearts with 3 hearts and a minimum game forcing hand. The reason for this is that responder is choosing to give captaincy to opener by showing his hand rather than taking captaincy by raising to 3♥. With a very strong hand and heart support responder would take control by raising, asking opener to further describe his hand.

The only thing I would quibble with is the 3 card heart support limitation. What would you bid with x Jxxx Ax AKJT9x? If you can't make a second round splinter on these cards, you have to decide whether to make an immediate splinter raise, giving captaincy to partner while suppressing the main feature of your hand, or taking control of the auction yourself by bidding 2♣ followed by 3♥.

The idea that the second jump is natural and very strong may predate the use of splinter bids in these auctions. It is also a possible explanation if the partnership is not playing that a simple 2♠ rebid is forcing (which I have run into in a pickup partnership on one occasion, when my partner told me we were playing 2/1 game forcing except when either opener or responder rebid his suit).

[blackshoe]

ArtK78, on 2014-June-05, 05:54, said:

The idea that the second jump is natural and very strong may predate the use of splinter bids in these auctions.

I'm sure it does.

ArtK78, on 2014-June-05, 05:54, said:

It is also a possible explanation if the partnership is not playing that a simple 2♠ rebid is forcing (which I have run into in a pickup partnership on one occasion, when my partner told me we were playing 2/1 game forcing except when either opener or responder rebid his suit).

2♠ would have been forcing. It would also not have been a rebid of responder's suit, since she bid 2♣ first.

[ArtK78]

blackshoe, on 2014-June-05, 08:30, said:

2♠ would have been forcing. It would also not have been a rebid of responder's suit, since she bid 2♣ first.

I understand that. I said that I have run into at least one person who played that a 2/1 was not forcing to game if EITHER partner rebid his suit. This became painfully evident to me when I had an auction go 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - P. I found out later that this was not an aberration on the part of my partner - there is a group of players (hopefully a small group) out there that actually plays that operer's rebid can be passed if it is a simple rebid of opener's suit.

[barmar]

I've heard of 2/1 game forcing except when responder rebids his suit. This is the first I've heard of anyone playing that opener rebidding his suit also cancels the game force.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2014-June-05, 15:19, said:

I've heard of 2/1 game forcing except when responder rebids his suit. This is the first I've heard of anyone playing that opener rebidding his suit also cancels the game force.

The first is an optional variation of 2/1 G.F. The second is ignorance; they are not playing 2/1 G.F., but rather some other form of a 5cM system. Of no importance to me unless they misinform us by calling it 2/1.