[straube]

As a preamble for Atul (in case he's following this) I'm thinking to include heart hands in our 2C structure since he'd like to use a more standard relay structure here. awm has a great structure for this so we could just adopt that. This leaves 2N (currently 6C/4H) open and thinking that we could instead preempt the 6D/4H hands; this works a little better because the 3C bid is an ask instead of a sign off. This leaves 1D-1H, 1S as still possibly 4S/6D which we've ample room to relay, but 1D-1S, 2D is suddenly free. Quite a cascade.

Of course awm has had that sequence free all along (since his 2D opening can have a major) and he's worked out very nice continuations for it, coupled with 1D-2S as WJS and 1D-2H as also WJS.

I'm thinking of 1D-2S as WJS and am debating reverse Flannery vs WJS hearts. Both are really valuable. Now we have a way to invite with 6H after 1D-1H, 1S and 1D-1H, 1N (XYZ) but not over 1D-1H, 2C and then have to jump to 3H in a potential misfit. So we "need" it there but only when opener has 5+D/4+C.

OTOH the 1D-1S auctions are just cramped for room and if 1D-2H gets rid of the weak 5S/4+H hands and 1D-2S gets rid of the weak 6S hands then 1D-1S (when weak) is either a 5332, 4333, or has a side minor. In fact, all of these have a 3-fit for a minor.

Here's a possible continuation for 1D-1S if we used Reverse Flannery. What I dislike most about this is burying minimum 04(54) hands in a 1N rebid. It's a terrible part score.

1D-1S
.....1N-11-13 bal or 10-12 unbalanced short spades
..........2C-asking
...............2D-balanced
....................2H-relays for full shape
.........................2S-4 hearts
.........................2N-5C or 3334
.........................3C-4m4m
.........................etc
...............2H-4H/8m
....................2S-asks
.........................2N-1444
.........................3C-1435
.........................etc-1453
...............2S-3H/9m
...............2N-0445
...............etc-0454
..........2D-GI ask?
..........2H-GI hearts (could potentially show 5H here)
..........2S-GI 6S
.....2C-13-15 unbalanced short spades
..........2D-to play
..........2H-GF ask
...............2S-4H/8m
...............2N-3H/9m
...............etc
..........2S-6S, inv (like 10-12), usually opener passes
..........2N-probably just to play with a misfit, like 8-10 4333 or 5332
..........3m-inviting 5m. If 3N looks right, just bid it
.....2D-5m/5m
..........2H-asks
...............2S-min
....................2N-asks
...............etc-max, showing shape
..........2S-6S, inv
..........2N-inv with major stoppers
..........3C-to play
.....2H-good raise
.....2S-bad raise
..........2N-nf invite
..........3C-GF ask
...............3D-3145
...............3H-3154
...............3S-3415
...............3N-3451
...............splinters
...............4S-min balanced
.....2N-void raise
.....3C-max, 5D/6C
.....3D-max, 4S, higher short
.....3H-max, 4S, middle short
.....3S-max, 4S, lower short

Suggestions or criticism? One thought is to make the 1D-1S, 2C be 14-15 with singleton spade and 13-15 for the void spade hands. In looking at hands, I found myself getting to 5m where I otherwise wouldn't. OTOH, it's rather a crapshoot as to whether rebidding 1N with a stiff spade is better or not. It avoids silly 4/3 or even 3/3 fits but also loses 4-4 or 5-4 fits.

Also, still very much considering 1D-2H as WJS.

[awm]

I've always thought a lot of the advantage to rebidding 1nt with short spades was finding heart fits. It seems weird to make this rebid knowing partner won't have a min with 4 hearts.

[Zelandakh]

Needs more preamble for the rest of us I think. What hands are contained in the 1♦ opening? Is it just natural or balanced or are the 4M5♣ hands here too? What about ♦ one-suiters? 6♦4♣? 4♦6♣? I need to work out how many hand types there are before I can think about which response structures are possible. Of course Adam has more experience here anyway so maybe it is not worth my looking into it and covering a lot of the same ground - is anyway not so easy to find time for this stuff - but if I get a chance and it might be helpful I will try to keep it in my thoughts for a bit.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-07, 11:36, said:

Needs more preamble for the rest of us I think. What hands are contained in the 1♦ opening? Is it just natural or balanced or are the 4M5♣ hands here too? What about ♦ one-suiters? 6♦4♣? 4♦6♣? I need to work out how many hand types there are before I can think about which response structures are possible. Of course Adam has more experience here anyway so maybe it is not worth my looking into it and covering a lot of the same ground - is anyway not so easy to find time for this stuff - but if I get a chance and it might be helpful I will try to keep it in my thoughts for a bit.

1D would be...

11-13 balanced 4432 or 4333 or 5m332

or 10-15 and....
5+/5+ minors
4S/6+D
3-suited (4441,5431,5440) without a 5M

So pretty much same as awm except we would keep the 4S/6D

[straube]

awm, on 2014-June-07, 10:51, said:

I've always thought a lot of the advantage to rebidding 1nt with short spades was finding heart fits. It seems weird to make this rebid knowing partner won't have a min with 4 hearts.

If I don't use reverse Flannery, then (like you say) it's advantageous to rebid 1N with 1435 or 1444 or 1453 in order to pick up hearts. However, with 1354 or 1345 or 2254 or 2245 if I rebid 2C then I have a higher risk of winding up in a misfit on account of the 5S/4+H patterns than had I been playing Reverse Flannery.

So if I do play reverse Flannery, then I ought to enjoy some benefit from it. Responder is likelier to have minor suit cards and not hearts so perhaps for different reasons I still want to rebid 1N with 1435, 1453, or 1444 (for fear of misfit or finding the wrong minor) but have extra incentive to rebid 2C with 1354 or 1345 or 2254 or 2245 as I fit either minor partner might have.

However, I've arranged it so that opener's rebid can describe the strength of his hand, excepting the 5m/5m which would rebid 2D. This means (especially with 04(54) that I might languish in 1N when a minor suit fit is available. Obviously we're better off in 1N much of the time.

How would you approach opener's rebid if you played 2S as WJS and 2H as reverse Flannery? Obviously your 1D-1H auctions would suffer, but wouldn't your 1D-1S auctions improve?

[Zelandakh]

OK, here is a first try using my favourite base structure (as that is the quickest for me to work out).

1♦
==
1♥ = INV+ relay
... - 1♠ = 5+ diamonds
... - ... - 1NT = GF relay
... - ... - ... - 2♣ = 4 spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 2♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 2♥ = 6+ diamonds, min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 3-suited
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 4054, min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4450, min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4054, max
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 4450, max
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 2NT = 4063/4162, max
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 4261, max
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4360, max
... - ... - ... - ... - others = INV
... - 1NT = 11-13 bal
... - 2♣ = 5 clubs, min
... - ... - 2♦ = GF relay
... - ... - others = INV
... - 2♦ = (4441)
... - ... - 2♥ = GF relay
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 1444
... - ... - ... - 2NT = 4441
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 4414
... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4144, min
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4414, max
... - ... - others = INV
... - 2♥ = (13)45, max
... - 2♠ = 1435/3415, max
... - 2NT = 4(13)5, max
... - 3♣ = 0445, max
... - 3♦ = 4045, max
... - 3♥ = 4405, max
1♠ = weak (bucket)
... - 1NT = 11-13 bal
... - 2♣ = 5 clubs
... - 2♦ = 5+ diamonds
... - 2♥ = 4♥(441)
... - 2♠ = 4144
1NT = 4+ spades, 4+ hearts, weak
... - 2♣ = pick a minor
... - 2♦ = asks for longer major
... - 2M = to play
2♣♦♥♠ = nat, weak

Not 100% happy with it as weak bal opposite weak is vulnerable and buries major fits. Will try and find time to look at some alternatives next.

[straube]

We like to be able to force game after a 1S response, so I'm mostly wondering what folks think of 2H as reverse flannery (along with 2S as WJS) and how the continuations could be maximized after 1D-1S. Ultimately I want to compare to 1D-2H as WJS.

So for example, is my idea of making the 2C rebid 14-15 and 3-suited short spades along with 2D as 5/5 minors the best way to go? Or if not, what should 1N, 2C, and 2D show? Should I assign certain patterns to them regardless of point count? What do I do with the 4135 and 4153 patterns now, etc etc.

[awm]

I don't really understand what you're proposing here.

The structure you've proposed gets us a level higher when we need to play in clubs opposite opener's 5/5 hand. Sure, we will have an eight card fit, but why do we need to be at the three level when we might have bought it for two?

The knowledge that opener is "short in spades" for 1♦-1♠-2♣ doesn't seem really helpful; in particular it doesn't help you pick the appropriate partial (since you have no idea which minor is longer). In fact it seems like it might help the opposition more than it helps you. And the increased strength range combined with the unusual shape makes this rebid probably under-frequency.

One of the advantages of reverse flannery is that you don't have to make off-shape 1nt rebids for fear of missing a heart fit. This means you can play the 1nt rebid as guaranteeing 2-3♠, which helps in a lot of sequences where responder can just bash a game or partial. But you very specifically don't get that -- in fact you are allowing the 1nt rebid on a void which most people would not.

[straube]

1D-2H as 5S/5H weak
1D-2S WJS?

I'm really slowing the auction down here. I think the relays still work.

1D-1H (can be 5S/4H weak)
.....1S-4S or 3-1-(54)
..........XYZ
.....1N-bal or 2-2-(54)
..........XYZ
..........2S-5S
.....2C-5D/5C
..........2H-GI (likely that a weak heart hand can choose a minor)
..........2S-GF relay
.....2D-raise with shortness (spade shortness equals 3-cd raise)
.....2H-bal raise
.....2S-void raise
.....2N-1444, 1435 or 1453

1D-1S
.....1N-bal
.....2C-3-suited short spades
..........2H-GF relay
..........2S-GI
.....2D-5D/5C
..........2H-GI+ relay
..........2S-GI
.....2H-good raise
.....2S-bad raise

The relays work out better if the 5m/5m can be separated from the 3-suited short spades. There's roughly an equal number of hand patterns between them.

[akhare]

straube, on 2014-June-11, 08:03, said:

1D-2H as 5S/5H weak
1D-2S WJS?

I'm really slowing the auction down here. I think the relays still work.

1D-1H (can be 5S/4H weak)
.....1S-4S or 3-1-(54)
..........XYZ
.....1N-bal or 2-2-(54)
..........XYZ
..........2S-5S
.....2C-5D/5C
..........2H-GI (likely that a weak heart hand can choose a minor)
..........2S-GF relay
.....2D-raise with shortness (spade shortness equals 3-cd raise)
.....2H-bal raise
.....2S-void raise
.....2N-1444, 1435 or 1453

1D-1S
.....1N-bal
.....2C-3-suited short spades
..........2H-GF relay
..........2S-GI
.....2D-5D/5C
..........2H-GI+ relay
..........2S-GI
.....2H-good raise
.....2S-bad raise

The relays work out better if the 5m/5m can be separated from the 3-suited short spades. There's roughly an equal number of hand patterns between them.

Few comments:

1) It appears that that the structure offloads all the 6♦-4M hands to the 2♦ / 2N openings. If so, this is a step in the right direction and will greatly simplify relays.
2) It appears that the revised post no longer uses the the 1♦ - 1♠ - 1N and 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ sequences no longer split the hands along the basis of HCP strength (once again a good improvement).
3) It seems that we are intriguingly close to making the 1♦ - 1♥ and 1♦ - 1♠ sequences almost identical. In fact, it may even be possible, by defining 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ as 4+♣ 4+♦ (unbalanced with with short ♥s) and 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ as 4+ ♣, 4+♦s unbalanced with short ♠ (a la IMPrecision). It also paves the way for 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♦ to be precisely 1=4=5=3.
4) It's possible to eliminate the weak / invitational 5♠ - 4♥ from the initial 1♥ response by using two reverse-Flannery bids (2♥ / 2♠, a la Meckwell) and completely giving up on the WJS.

[straube]

Here's how the relays might go...

1D-1H
.....1S
..........2C-GF ask
...............2D-3-suited short hearts
....................2S-3-1-4-5
....................2N-3-1-5-4
....................3C-4-1-4-4
....................3D-4-0-4-5
....................3H-4-0-5-4
...............2H-4S/5+D
...............2S-bal
....................3C-4234
....................3D-4324
....................3H-4243
....................3S-4342
....................3N-4333
...............2N-4-1-3-5
...............3C-4-2-2-5
...............3D-4-3-1-5
..........2D-requests 2H
...............2H
....................P-6H
....................2S-4S or 5S/4H
....................2N-GI 5H
....................3m-to play
..........2H-GI 6H
..........2S-GI 4S
..........3m-GI
.....1N-bal, not 4S
..........2C-forces 2D
...............2D
....................2H-GI, 5+H
..........2D-artificial GF?
...............2S-4m/4m
...............2N-5C332
...............3C-4m333
...............etc-5D332
..........2H-sign off
..........2S-sign off, 5S/4H
.....2C-5D/5C
..........2H-GI
..........2S-GF relay
.....2D-raise with shortness
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-1-3-(54)
...............3C-4-4-1-4
...............3D-3-4-1-5
...............3H-4-4-4-1
...............3S-3-4-5-1
.....2H-bal raise
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-4S
...............etc
.....2S-raise with void
.....2N-raise with stiff spade
..........3C-relays
...............3D-1-4-4-4
...............3H-1-4-3-5
...............3S-1-4-5-3

1D-1S
.....1N-bal
..........2C-forces 2D
...............2D-
....................2H-GI, 5S/4H
....................2S-GI, 5+S
..........2D-GF relay?
...............2S-4H?
....................3C-2-4-3-4
....................3D-3-4-2-4
....................3H-2-4-4-3
....................3S-3-4-4-2
..........2H-GI, 5S/5H
..........2S-sign off
.....2C-3-suited short spades
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-8 minors
...............2N-9 minors, 3H
...............3C-0-4-4-5
...............3D-0-4-5-4
..........2S-GI
.....2D-5D/5C
..........2H-GI+ ask
...............2S-min
....................2N-GF ask
...............etc-max
.....2H-good raise
.....2S-bad raise

[foobar]

straube, on 2014-June-11, 12:47, said:

Here's how the relays might go...

1D-1H
.....1S
..........2C-GF ask
...............2D-3-suited short hearts
....................2S-3-1-4-5
....................2N-3-1-5-4
....................3C-4-1-4-4
....................3D-4-0-4-5
....................3H-4-0-5-4
...............2H-4S/5+D
...............2S-bal
....................3C-4234
....................3D-4324
....................3H-4243
....................3S-4342
....................3N-4333
...............2N-4-1-3-5
...............3C-4-2-2-5
...............3D-4-3-1-5
..........2D-requests 2H
...............2H
....................P-6H
....................2S-4S or 5S/4H
....................2N-GI 5H
....................3m-to play
..........2H-GI 6H
..........2S-GI 4S
..........3m-GI
.....1N-bal, not 4S
..........2C-forces 2D
...............2D
....................2H-GI, 5+H
..........2D-artificial GF?
...............2S-4m/4m
...............2N-5C332
...............3C-4m333
...............etc-5D332
..........2H-sign off
..........2S-sign off, 5S/4H
.....2C-5D/5C
..........2H-GI
..........2S-GF relay
.....2D-raise with shortness
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-1-3-(54)
...............3C-4-4-1-4
...............3D-3-4-1-5
...............3H-4-4-4-1
...............3S-3-4-5-1
.....2H-bal raise
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-4S
...............etc
.....2S-raise with void
.....2N-raise with stiff spade
..........3C-relays
...............3D-1-4-4-4
...............3H-1-4-3-5
...............3S-1-4-5-3

I think you have a real opportunity here to make the relays completely symmetric and reap the advantages of promising 4♠ after 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠.

BTW, looks like they are retiring my akhare handle .

1D - 1M:

.........1♠: 4♠
................2D: GF ask
....................2H: Balanced hands
....................2S: Three suited, short hearts (4144, 4045, 4054)
....................2N: 2-2-(45)
....................3C: 4=1=3=5
....................3D: 4=1=5=3
.........1N: Balanced or 1M=3OM=(54) OR 1=4=4=4
................2D: GF ask
....................2H: Balanced hands
....................2S: 1=4=4=4 OR 1M=3OM-(54) -> now symmetric with 3♣ / 3♦ below
....................2N: 2-2-(45)
....................3C: 1=4=3=5
....................3D: 1=4=5=3

.........2♣: 4+♦ 4+♣, denies 3+M (5+♦-5+♣, three suited with void in major)
...................2OM: GF relay
............................2N: Three suited with void major
............................3C+: LL shapes with minors
.........2M-1: Good raise with 3+M and shortness
.........2M: Normal non-maximum raise
.........2M+1: Raise with void
.........2M+x: Raise with high singleton
.........3♣: Max with 5♦ - 5♣

Furthermore, I think you should take this one step further and promise 4+♥ with 1♦ - 1♥. Granted, this means that you have to respond 1♦ - 2♣ or 1♦ - 2♦ with a GF balanced hand without a majors, but it has the twin advantages of faring better in much more common competitive situations and also side steps the nuisance of alerting the 1♥ response as being 2+ in a balanced GF hand.