[dickiegera]

Do you double or bid 2 Hearts?

---

AND how do you follow up with the bidding after partners response?

If you double you have a bid if partner bids 2♥,what do you do over 2♠ or 2NT lebensohl or 3♣?

Thank you

[helene_t]

I double. Too strong for 2!h which is limited to about 16 HCPs, maybe a modest 17.

After 2!s I bid 3!h. This shows a somewhat flexible hand with five hearts, maybe six modest ones. With a one-suited hand and the same strength I would have bid 3!h immediately.

Over 2NT I think I am just worth a 3!h bid. A small stretch maybe.

Over 3!c I have an easy 3!h bid.

[whereagles]

Both dbl and 2♥ should get there.

(2♦)
dbl 3♣ (constructive)
3♥ 4♥

(2♦)
2♥ 3♥
4♥

[Bbradley62]

<<removed>>

[kenberg]

I'm inclined to bid 2♥. The heart suit is pretty shaggy to be doubling and then bidding hearts, and while I have an 18 count the ♦ A is four high card points but only one trick. Perhaps relevant, the contract of 3NT is a certain make, the contract of 4♥ could become difficult on a 4-1 split. A diamond lead, taken, and I duck a heart, a diamond comes back. If hearts are 3-2 I cannot go wrong, but if they are 4-1 I have to ruff else I lose four obvious tricks. Suppose 4-1. I ruff the diamond, now what? If I cash cash the heart ace, I think I am down. Obviously I cannot lead another trump, North will win, draw trump, lead a diamond. So have to go after my winners. But North holds off on ruffing clubs until the fourth club. He ruffs that, cashes a heart, clearing hearts in dummy, , and plays another diamond.

OK, so it appears that, to cater to a 4-1, the play must go: Win tghe diamond, duck a heart, ruff the next diamond, duck another heart. South shows out, as North wins and plays a spade. Am I ok? I am not so sure. I still cannot play the ace and another trump, diamonds are running, and if I just play the ace and then the blacks, then North can still hold off ruffing clubs until the fourth round. I cannot duck a third heart (!), this leaves me with a stiff Ace and no hearts in dummy when a diamond is led. If instead I leave two hearts out, North again ruffs the fourth club and plays his last heart putting me back in hand so that I eventually lose a spade.

Possibly I am wrong about the play, it happens, but the point is this: I have found partner with good values and three hearts, and still 4♥ is not exactly what you would call on ice. if, on the first round, I double and then later bid 3♥, a partner, holding decent values but stuck for a good bid, might very well raise to 4♥ holding something like Qx. He will expect, or at least hope for, better hearts from me. On many other hands raising to 4 with values and with Qx support is exactly what I want him to do after I double and then bid my hearts.

Now we probably are not going to find 3NT. That's just life, The above is not meant as a path to 3NT, it is meant as an explanation why I am hesitant to double and then bid hearts. The hand is not as good as it looks [Aside: " The music of Wagner is better than it sounds" was apparently first said by Edgar Nye, not Mark Twain] when four of my points are from a stiff Ace in their suit and my five card suit is Ace empty fifth.

Looking at both hands, there is another potential problem with doubling. If North has a little shape to go with his presumed four card diamond holding, he is about to call 4♦. When this is passed back to me I can of course call 4♥, but that strikes me as very scary. Or I can double again and hope like hell that partner does not bid 4♠.

All in all, I think that 2♥ has a lot going for it. On the given hand, we will get to 4♥, and we will make it if hearts are 3-2.

[Cyberyeti]

Also how do you cope when the auction goes 2♦-X/2♥-3♦ I presume you just double again if you doubled first up, you're in a better position if you overcalled.

4♥ and 5♣ will struggle on an unlikely spade lead (4♥ only if they're 4-1) but 3N is cold, the only way you might get there would be to decide you had a balanced 18 (2N being 15-17 or similar) and bid accordingly 2♦-X-P-3♣-P-3N which is not an unreasonable shot as you know Axxxxx or AQxxx and out are likely to be enough.

[kenberg]

I confess that I was thinking of 5♣ as doomed, but Cy is right that it makes, absent extreme distribut such as hearts 5-0, with a non-spade lead. But after a double, with East as the declarer in a possible 5♣ contract, a spade lead may happen. South may not like leading from his unsupported diamond King, and a spade might be attractive.

As mentioned, I bid 2♥. But I was thinking how a double could work out. Assume North passes (unlikely imo). The OP indicates Lebensohl is being played, and I would assume that East would bid 3♣. It's a pretty good hand with five clubs, but of course it depends on what their strength agreements are for Leb. If East bids 3♣, I can imagine West deciding that 3NT might well come in, which it does.

So a double could work here. I still like 2♥. Doubling and then bidding my hearts really doesn't appeal to me, for reasons that I mentioned earlier.

[PhilKing]

kenberg, on 2014-July-27, 10:01, said:

So a double could work here. I still like 2♥. Doubling and then bidding my hearts really doesn't appeal to me, for reasons that I mentioned earlier.

I think double followed by bidding hearts should show this kind of hand - it is never done on a one suiter. After following with, say, 3♥, partner should not be inclined to raise on a doubleton.

I don't object to 2♥ that strongly, but I know if I did it, I would play there with 7♣ making.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-27, 11:10, said:

I think double followed by bidding hearts should show this kind of hand - it is never done on a one suiter. After following with, say, 3♥, partner should not be inclined to raise on a doubleton.

I don't object to 2♥ that strongly, but I know if I did it, I would play there with 7♣ making.

My concern with X is what you're going to do when partner doesn't have Q♦ and the auction goes 2♦-X-4♦-P-P to you.

There are hands where you would rather partner bid 4♥ with 3 rather than just pass a double with a balanced hand, or bid 5♣ with 5, easier if you overcall, I don't think you're suitable to bid 4♥.

[dickiegera]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-27, 11:10, said:

I think double followed by bidding hearts should show this kind of hand - it is never done on a one suiter. After following with, say, 3♥, partner should not be inclined to raise on a doubleton.

I don't object to 2♥ that strongly, but I know if I did it, I would play there with 7♣ making.

Our bidding went 2♦-X-P-3♣
P-3♦-P-4♣
all Pass

Making 6, they gave us a ruff and sluff. Hearts were 2-3

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-July-27, 11:40, said:

My concern with X is what you're going to do when partner doesn't have Q♦ and the auction goes 2♦-X-4♦-P-P to you.

There are hands where you would rather partner bid 4♥ with 3 rather than just pass a double with a balanced hand, or bid 5♣ with 5, easier if you overcall, I don't think you're suitable to bid 4♥.

I'm going to bid 4♥ - sue me.

[rmnka447]

I will double with this hand.

If partner has a bust and I bid 2 ♥, partner will pass. That may or may not be good. Even if partner finds a bid, it gets nearly impossible to convince partner that you have the values you hold.

If I double, partner can show a bad hand by bidding 2 ♠ or using Lebensohl. Partner can also show a good hand by bidding something else. So you can get a good handle on the ballpark of the hand whatever partner does.

This may especially important when partner holds a good 7 or 8 value hand that is in the game going ballpark, but also cannot make a move over 2 ♥. Give opener about a decent 9 count. LHO and partner should have 13 points between them. Any close to even split between those two hands gets partner pretty close to that game going zone.

[kenberg]

PhilKing, on 2014-July-27, 11:10, said:

I think double followed by bidding hearts should show this kind of hand - it is never done on a one suiter. After following with, say, 3♥, partner should not be inclined to raise on a doubleton.

I don't object to 2♥ that strongly, but I know if I did it, I would play there with 7♣ making.

Certainly if I had a strong one suited hand I could bid 3♥ over 2♦, that is true. but when I do that, I am prepared to have partner raise to 4 on a stiff Q .It's tricky, and I value your response and that of others.

Here is another possibility over a double, I think along the lines asked by the OP. Suppose East has four spades instead of three, and lacks the values for the in-between sequence of 2NT followed by 3♠. So he bids 2♠. I still want to try, right? If he has five, we could well belong in 4♠ and if he has three hearts we could belong in 4♥. The spade hand could be particularly attractive because the ruffs will be in the hand with the short trump. I am thinking that after 2♠, the right call, if understood, could be 3♦, meaning " Good hand, maybe belongs in spades, maybe belongs in hearts, maybe belongs in game or maybe doesn't." On those rare occasions where my hand is so strong that after the 2♠ call I think it is too strong for a direct raise to 4♠ I can still begin with 3♦ and then call 4♠ at my next turn. Does this sound right to you and to others?

[PhilKing]

kenberg, on 2014-July-27, 12:57, said:

Certainly if I had a strong one suited hand I could bid 3♥ over 2♦, that is true. but when I do that, I am prepared to have partner raise to 4 on a stiff Q .It's tricky, and I value your response and that of others.

Here is another possibility over a double, I think along the lines asked by the OP. Suppose East has four spades instead of three, and lacks the values for the in-between sequence of 2NT followed by 3♠. So he bids 2♠. I still want to try, right? If he has five, we could well belong in 4♠ and if he has three hearts we could belong in 4♥. The spade hand could be particularly attractive because the ruffs will be in the hand with the short trump. I am thinking that after 2♠, the right call, if understood, could be 3♦, meaning " Good hand, maybe belongs in spades, maybe belongs in hearts, maybe belongs in game or maybe doesn't." On those rare occasions where my hand is so strong that after the 2♠ call I think it is too strong for a direct raise to 4♠ I can still begin with 3♦ and then call 4♠ at my next turn. Does this sound right to you and to others?

I would typically be 3424 18+ or FG any for the sequence you describe.

For me 3♥ after 2♠ shows " Good hand, maybe belongs in spades, maybe belongs in hearts, maybe belongs in game or maybe doesn't."

[gszes]

when you are interested in just 1 bid do not show both hands---no one likes to
make the wrong guess when they have all the evidence before them. It is difficult
to not bid 2h looking at both hands since p will have an easy 3h raise and we get
to very nice 4h contract which will work really well at MP and reasonably so at IMPS.

W/O the benefit of seeing both hands I prefer x. AKx is hardly horrid support if p bids
2s or 3s and Axxxx is really top notch support if p bids 2h or 3h (yeah right). The main
disadvantage to a 2h overcall is the risk of missing game or worse p playing us for decent
hearts and raising us with (Q or J)x and us missing 4s or 5/6 clubs.

[kenberg]

gszes, on 2014-July-27, 13:37, said:

when you are interested in just 1 bid do not show both hands---no one likes to
make the wrong guess when they have all the evidence before them. It is difficult
to not bid 2h looking at both hands since p will have an easy 3h raise and we get
to very nice 4h contract which will work really well at MP and reasonably so at IMPS.

W/O the benefit of seeing both hands I prefer x. AKx is hardly horrid support if p bids
2s or 3s and Axxxx is really top notch support if p bids 2h or 3h (yeah right). The main
disadvantage to a 2h overcall is the risk of missing game or worse p playing us for decent
hearts and raising us with (Q or J)x and us missing 4s or 5/6 clubs.

Just speaking for myself, having both hands posted does not affect me much, if at all. Or so I think, anyway.

As to your last remark, I see the point. Even if we have a 5-3 fit in both majors, it is likely to be right to play in spades so we can ruff in the hand with the short trump.

[whereagles]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-July-27, 08:39, said:

Also how do you cope when the auction goes 2♦-X/2♥-3♦ I presume you just double again if you doubled first up, you're in a better position if you overcalled.

2♦ dbl 3♦ pass
pass 3♥

2♦ 2♥ 3♦ pass
pass dbl

[Cyberyeti]

whereagles, on 2014-July-28, 03:41, said:

2♦ dbl 3♦ pass
pass 3♥

2♦ 2♥ 3♦ pass
pass dbl

This is exactly the point I'm making, I'd much prefer the second sequence to the first, I'd like a better suit for the 3♥ bid.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-July-28, 04:13, said:

This is exactly the point I'm making, I'd much prefer the second sequence to the first, I'd like a better suit for the 3♥ bid.

But what is your point?

The sequences are essentially symmetrical (except they aren't, but bear with me) so what is the benefit. The difference is that my way avoids languishing in 2♥ when cold for slam in another denomination. I get to show hearts by bidding them and three suits by doubling - you do not always get a second chance when you overcall this strong.

And the reason the methods are not symetrical is that at some point, a 4513/3514 hand becomes too strong to overcall whatever your style. I like to double when 2♥ can lead to playing there when cold for a grand somewhere else, this may be old-fashioned, but it stops the silly results. My method of of double followed by 4♥ if they boost to 4♦ is unambiguous - it DENIES 6 hearts (if it gets me to a 4-3 spade fit now and again, that is fine). Yours promises six hearts (or the equivalent) so you sometimes have to double with this shape and miss the 5-3 fit. Conversely, if I overcall 2♥ and then double, I promise 6 hearts and 3613 or similar.

Also the 3631 hand strong enough to double then bid hearts is rare - it's a useful sequence that is massively underused in your scheme. I've produced booklets from my database generally consisting of 60 hands for nearly every preempt under the sun for my various teams which we bid and then compare with the original auctions, and by far the biggest technical error of even world-class pairs, is the massive underuse of takeout doubles on shapes like this (the biggest non-technical error is rampant overbidding with "slam invitations", but that is another issue).

[kenberg]

Note to OP: This has turned into a very interesting discussion (for me, at least).

Hypothetical situation;
(2♦)-X-(3♦)--P
P-3♥-P-?


Let's give partner something like this 5=2=2=4:
Jxxxx
Kx
xx
xxxx

If I held this, I would pass on the first round over the opponent's 3♦. Now, on the second round, I must decide whether to convert to 3♠ or, perhaps, to bid game in one major or the other. If I can trust partner to have three spades, no doubt I should convert to spades at some level, especially if the hearts might be Ace ampty fifth. 3♠ seems right, somehow passing on the first round and jumping on the second seems to mean that one of those calls is wrong. Although as 4 point hands go, this one is pretty good on the auction.

So my question, for Phil and the other doublers: Imagine that you are in fourth seat with the above hand and auction. You opt for spades, not hearts here, right? Second question, how many spades?

As I say, I am finding this interesting and useful.