[eagles123]

So I played at Brighton yesterday with wank and a couple of others. Much stronger level than I'm used to but was fun.

Anyway I had this bidding problem at imps- I apologise but ion phone so can't do hand diagram and don't remember vul

1c 2nt 3c

2nt - d and h

Now my go don't remember spots

Aqxxxx
Txx
Ax
Xxx

Thx

Eagles

[helene_t]

It would be good to have discussed 2NT style with p and to know the vul

Probably I would bid 3♥ nonvul and 4♥ vul.

[eagles123]

Sorry not discussed

[whereagles]

3♠. Who knows, maybe pard has Kx there? If not, we'll play 4♥.

[whereagles]

misclick

[eagles123]

Is 3 spades

Sign off
Invitational
Forcing

[ArtK78]

 eagles123, on 2014-August-14, 07:05, said:

Is 3 spades

Sign off
Invitational
Forcing

Assuming that the 3♠ bidder was an unpassed hand, it must be forcing.

And, giving this 2 seconds of additional thought, it must be forcing regardless, as if the 3♠ bidder had only a weak hand with spades he would have done something previously other than pass. So, as a passed hand it must show a fit for one of the two suits held by the 2NT bidder.

[P_Marlowe]

 eagles123, on 2014-August-14, 05:42, said:

Sorry not discussed

3H

If 4H has play, partner will raise, independent of vul.
He knowes, that we play IMPs, he also knowes, we did not discuss this,
and he also knoes his hand, and if he thinks, he has a reasonable 2NT call,
he will raise.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[aguahombre]

OP, in stating that 3S is undiscussed, has told us one thing loud and clear: Don't bid 3S!

Treadwell or Zeke would describe 3S here as exactly what we have --6 Spades and a willingness to play in 3 Hearts.

I would be willing to give up a penalty Double of 3C to show this hand, but would not do that either if undiscussed.

Hence, 3H.

[Zelandakh]

3♠ cannot be a sign off (don't tell the opps you are weak in a misfit at the 3 level!) or an invite (stopping on a pin head) so is obviously forcing. Helene's plan seems quite reasonable although a vulnerable 3♠ has something going for it too.

[helene_t]

AH: 3s showing a willingness to play 3h would violate rubins useful space principle

[aguahombre]

 helene_t, on 2014-August-14, 11:00, said:

AH: 3s showing a willingness to play 3h would violate rubins useful space principle

Hence, attributing the idea to two of the more famous jokesters. Did I need to use an emoticon?

[eagles123]

Ok cheers guys. Thinking about if think red red

Anyway I bid 3h

So 1c 2n 3c 3h 4c pp

Go again

[Zelandakh]

It would be inconsistent to go again having bid 3♥ last time around.

[P_Marlowe]

 eagles123, on 2014-August-14, 12:17, said:

Ok cheers guys. Thinking about if think red red

Anyway I bid 3h

So 1c 2n 3c 3h 4c pp

Go again

pass? Bidding again is saying, p you are an idiot.

[Fluffy]

All posters above should learn to count to 14. It is a very good skill for this game.

[BillPatch]

 Fluffy, on 2014-August-14, 23:12, said:

All posters above should learn to count to 14. It is a very good skill for this game.

I thought it was only necessary to learn to count to 13, but you are correct that the hand in question does not contain 13 cards.

[bluechip10]

 eagles123, on 2014-August-14, 05:34, said:

So I played at Brighton yesterday with wank and a couple of others. Much stronger level than I'm used to but was fun.

Anyway I had this bidding problem at imps- I apologise but ion phone so can't do hand diagram and don't remember vul

1c 2nt 3c

2nt - d and h

Now my go don't remember spots

Aqxxxx
Txx
Ax
Xxx

Thx

Eagles

I play 2nt as a weak hand or as a strong hand. If I have an intermediate hand, I bid the suits out. I also tend to have good suits (two of the top three honors or even KJT). Given the bidding, you have a great chance to make at least four hearts. Even 6 or 7 hearts is possible, depending on distribution and high cards (picture a hand with a void in clubs, KX of spades; AKQxx of hts, and Kxxxxx of diamonds. That is only a 15 point hand.) So, I would bid 4hts. I am making a free bid at the four level so I have to have something. If pard is strong, then ace asking or cuebidding will lead to the appropriate slam. Even if weak (void in clubs, AKxxxx in hearts, Kxxxx in dia and xx in spades, 6 hts is possible).

[PhantomSac]

I would bid 4H the first time and don't consider it close, I have 3 trumps Ax of partners side suit and the AQ of spades. Partner has forced to the 3 level in a dangerous fashion, if this is not enough to have a good shot for game he should not bid 2N.

I also think 3S is obviously non forcing. Sometimes you have 7 spades and want to bid. I keep seeing the "you don't need to stop on a dime at the 3 level, ergo 3 level bids are forcing" logic stated, but the idea of playing 3S as non forcing is not to stop on a dime in 3S, it's so that you can get your suit in in a competitive auction and perhaps partner with a good hand/fit can raise you to game. There is a big difference in 1561 and a horrible hand for spades and 2551 and a decent hand for spades. If you cannot bid 3S with 7 spades without forcing to game, that will cause you to either have to pass more (and miss game when partner has a good hand for you), or have to make ridiculously speculative 4S bids that might well get doubled and be disastrous.

How often are you guys going to have a forcing 3S bid in this auction? It is very hard, it requires an extremely good hand, and most of those times you have very good spades and can just bid 4S. And before someone tells me that is bad on slam hands, well, you are not going to have a slam in spades very often on this auction so catering to that and not catering to much more likely hand types is not a good idea. You are not that likely to have extremely good hands with not great spades and no red suit fit on this auction, LHO has opened, RHO has shown some values, and partner has shown the reds with a wide range. If you don't have a red suit fit, and don't have a self sufficient spade suit (that can bid 4S), you are just so unlikely to have a hand good enough to force to game opposite 2N.

It is really missing the boat to play 3S as forcing in this auction in my strong opinion. You guys really want to pass with KQJxxxx Kx x xxx when you could easily have a game opposite a decent fitting hand from partner? Or you really want to bid 4S when that could easily be down several opposite a bad fitting hand from parnter (it's not hard to imagine they cash the SA and run clubs and take another trick, and in some of those cases you are just getting doubled). It is not bridge to play a system where you must pass with good 7 card suits or simply jump to game when it could be awful. So no, the point is not to stop on a dime, it's to get your suits in and get to more games when partner has a good fit while not having to do ridiculou things when it's not a game hand and you know so little about how partner's hand is going to fit with you at thi point in the auction.

[eagles123]

Many thanks all

Sorry for hand error was 6322 not 6332