[Cthulhu D]

So for various (bad) reasons partner and I want to try opening 2C (NV) as a fert or some sort of weak hand on the basis that it will generate hilarious swings, and we love nothing if not hilarity and also the terrible, terrible fear when the auction goes Weak Opening - (X) - P - (INCREDIBLE TANK). (Questionable) Merits of this aside, I have be charged with figuring out how to do this, and that means I need to do something with the strong hand types. Several options present themselves:

A) I can 'grow' the ceiling of the 1M openings to 21/22 HCP
B) I can squeeze in a balanced 23-24 option into a multi 2 level type opening. I can probably also tuck 6 card GF in the minors in here at low additional cost.
C) Stuffing the other unbalanced strong openings into.. something.
D) Being more aggressive/disciplined about opening 3NT with a major suit rock crusher; and/or
E) Saying 'sod it' and just winging it when you pick up a 23 count because how often does that happen really?

It's possible that I've missed something and would love to have this drawn to my attention, but I'm currently stuck with the monster unbalanced hands (C types). What to do? The options appear to be

1) Play the 1-level openings as forcing
2) Put the strong hands in 1C - obviously the polish club solution, but that feels like 1C becomes nightmarishly overloaded
3) Put the strong hands in 1D - A much less heavily utilised bid, with 1/4th of the frequency of our 1C opener. However you do lose a ton of space.

Playing 1D as forcing without a super negative is probably relatively safe as you are likely to have some good shape if you don't have the rock crusher, and if you play transfer rebids by opening you can probably bail out at the same level people who opened 2C are, but does anyone have experience with this or any other way

[whereagles]

I played a polish style 1♣ for many years and it worked just fine. Check it out:

1♣ = nat 3+ cards OR any hand that would open a SAYC 2♣. Forcing, obviously.

The idea was: you use the cheapest diamond rebid to show the strong hand (95% of the time this would be 2♦). Other bids mean you had the usual cookie-cutter 1♣ opening. This forced the clubs-diamond reverse to be opened 1♦, but "complications" afterwards were easy to handle, trust me.

Responses to 1♣:
1♣ 1♦ = nat 4+ diamonds 5+ points OR any 0-4 hand
1♣ else = nat

Rebids:
1♣ 1♦
2♦ = strong hand. Now responder bids 2♥ with 0-4 (nat afterwards) or something else nat with diamonds.

1♣ 1x
2♦ = strong hand, natural afterwards.

1♣ 2/3x (regardless of what it is)
2/3/4♦ = strong hand, natural afterwards.

This was the basic idea. Lot of tweaking possible, ofc. Me and pard never had a mix-up after 1♣ and we played for 5 years.

[Kungsgeten]

Put some strong hands into the pass, if that's legal where you live.

[jallerton]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-September-30, 01:43, said:

So for various (bad) reasons partner and I want to try opening 2C (NV) as a fert or some sort of weak hand on the basis that it will generate hilarious swings, and we love nothing if not hilarity and also the terrible, terrible fear when the auction goes Weak Opening - (X) - P - (INCREDIBLE TANK). (Questionable) Merits of this aside, I have be charged with figuring out how to do this, and that means I need to do something with the strong hand types. Several options present themselves:

A) I can 'grow' the ceiling of the 1M openings to 21/22 HCP
B) I can squeeze in a balanced 23-24 option into a multi 2 level type opening. I can probably also tuck 6 card GF in the minors in here at low additional cost.
C) Stuffing the other unbalanced strong openings into.. something.
D) Being more aggressive/disciplined about opening 3NT with a major suit rock crusher; and/or
E) Saying 'sod it' and just winging it when you pick up a 23 count because how often does that happen really?

It's possible that I've missed something and would love to have this drawn to my attention, but I'm currently stuck with the monster unbalanced hands (C types). What to do? The options appear to be

1) Play the 1-level openings as forcing
2) Put the strong hands in 1C - obviously the polish club solution, but that feels like 1C becomes nightmarishly overloaded
3) Put the strong hands in 1D - A much less heavily utilised bid, with 1/4th of the frequency of our 1C opener. However you do lose a ton of space.

Playing 1D as forcing without a super negative is probably relatively safe as you are likely to have some good shape if you don't have the rock crusher, and if you play transfer rebids by opening you can probably bail out at the same level people who opened 2C are, but does anyone have experience with this or any other way

As you are worried about the 1♣ opening being overloaded, I suggest a variant on option 2 would be to play a variant of TriBal [©MickyB].

1♦ = natural or any weak NT
1♣ = forcing, natural or 17/18-19 balanced or any game force

[rbforster]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-September-30, 13:26, said:

Put some strong hands into the pass, if that's legal where you live.

Or play a strong club and put the limited club hands into pass .

[Cthulhu D]

Alas strong hands in pass is illegal in this jurisdiction - I'm in Australia and functionally limited to Green, Blue and Red sticker 1 level and unfettered brown sticker 2 level stuff.

I guess my hidden agenda was 'squeeze this in without a radical system overhaul' and that might not be possible. I'm currently playing 2/1 with a very semi forcing 1NT and a short club so openings are thus:

1C: Clubs and the other two NT ranges with Xfer responses
1D: Unbalanced diamond with Xfer rebids by opener
1H: 5+
1S: 5+
1NT: 11-13 1st/2nd NV, 15-17 4th in at all vuls, 14-16 otherwise.

I'm not sure it matters, but historically we have played at the 2 level:

Spoiler

2C: Strong or weak diamonds or weak spades
2D: Diamonds + Major 4/4 or better
2H: Both majors 4/4 better
2S: Pre-empt in an unspecified suit
2NT: 20-21
3C: Both minors Ekrens style
3D: 6D+4M

Or, if the conditions of contest prevent playing 2C and 2S

2C: Strong or weak diamonds
2D: Weak only multi
2H: Both majors Ekrens style
2S: Spades + minor (sometimes raptor style if we think it is funny)
2NT: 20-21

I guess I'm hearing that doing this requires fatally compromising the core tenets of the system, which is non ideal for something we only want to play NV. Polish C would work, but it would require us to jettison the unbalanced diamond and that would make me deeply sad, though I think the bid is clearly under utilized.

[whereagles]

The scheme I mentioned above can be tweaked to use an unbalanced 1♦:

1♣ = (a) natural 5+ clubs; (b) any sayc 2♣; (c.) balanced 12-14; (d) balanced 18-19
1♦ = natural unbalanced, 4+ cards (usually 5+)

The 1♣ opening takes a beating, but I think it may be playable. In fact, I did play it like this for a while.

[Cthulhu D]

whereagles, on 2014-October-01, 06:03, said:

The scheme I mentioned above can be tweaked to use an unbalanced 1♦:

1♣ = (a) natural 5+ clubs; (b) any sayc 2♣; (c.) balanced 12-14; (d) balanced 18-19
1♦ = natural unbalanced, 4+ cards (usually 5+)

The 1♣ opening takes a beating, but I think it may be playable. In fact, I did play it like this for a while.

I think we might give it a whirl NV. We can use 2C for strong or weak with something again 3rd in so what's the worst that can happen?

[helene_t]

Put most gf hands in the multi 2♦ opening. 5/5 major/minor can be opened 1m. Even 5M4m maybe.

[whereagles]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-October-01, 06:25, said:

what's the worst that can happen?

If stuff gets competitive, you have to define whether, say,

1♣ (1♥) pass (3♥)
3♠

shows a sayc 2♣ bid with spades OR 6-5 in the blacks (a 6-4 just doubles). You can of course define that all strong hands bid 4♦ now, but I think that's a bit too much. 4♦ should show a sayc 2♣ with diamonds. I recommend instead that all 6-5 blacks open 1♠.

But I can tell you this problem will be VERY rare. It never happened to me in like 5 years.

[Cthulhu D]

helene_t, on 2014-October-01, 06:56, said:

Put most gf hands in the multi 2♦ opening. 5/5 major/minor can be opened 1m. Even 5M4m maybe.

Yeah it seems clear to add a balanced strong option and hands that would bid 2C-2D (waiting) - 3m to multi at a minimum because all that you have lost is that partner couldn't show a strong hand or a super negative

That also solves some of Wereeagles problem because I only need I one bid to show the Strong spades hand and everything else is free.

You are totally stuffed still if you pick up a balanced 24 count and constructive slam bidding is generally worse, so will have to see if the preempt is worth it.

[awm]

How about:

2d = weak with a major or strong with a major
1d = natural unbal and forcing
1c = (natural or balanced) and forcing

[snillrik13]

I Think there is a VERY simple solution. Just use a 2C opening as whatever you prefer and a rebid after 1C-1X>2C as a GF or 22-24 balanced. Good luck!

[benlessard]

In MP you can live without a forcing opening, just having 2C as preempt will compensate the strong hand when it goes 1M--all pass and you make 5. Also many solutiond with a forcing club will be better than a 2C strong anyway.

[glen]

snillrik13, on 2014-October-07, 08:04, said:

I Think there is a VERY simple solution. Just use a 2C opening as whatever you prefer and a rebid after 1C-1X>2C as a GF or 22-24 balanced. Good luck!

yes, that is VERY simple

what do you rebid after 1C-1S, with 6Cs, no spade fit, and minimum values?

[sfi]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-October-01, 00:42, said:

Alas strong hands in pass is illegal in this jurisdiction - I'm in Australia and functionally limited to Green, Blue and Red sticker 1 level and unfettered brown sticker 2 level stuff.

Yellow systems are frequently allowed, so it's worth checking to make sure. I don't believe our club or state tournament regulations restrict what you can play in open events, as long as you post the system a week ahead of time.

[Cthulhu D]

sfi, on 2014-October-07, 15:42, said:

Yellow systems are frequently allowed, so it's worth checking to make sure. I don't believe our club or state tournament regulations restrict what you can play in open events, as long as you post the system a week ahead of time.

Unfortunately BFACT only allows them for selection trials where the event being selected for also allows yellow systems. All the ACT clubs bow to the will of BFACT.

There is a non zero possibility we've met if you've played in Canberra at any point haha.

Quote

How about:

2d = weak with a major or strong with a major
1d = natural unbal and forcing
1c = (natural or balanced) and forcing

Yeah, this is pretty playable from tinkering about a bit - Being able to play the 3C and 3D rebids as two under transfers is very workable because you can unwind your fit. We respond on 1C to air anyway so playing that as forcing is not a huge loss. We kinda like tucking strong with diamonds in there as well, particularly if you aggressively open 2NT or 2D->2NT with a semi balanced hand particularly with clubs. We've got a qualifying tournament on the 19th (for which partner is flying back from an international trip that morning, so I expect we will do AWFULLY) and will give it a go after that.

We've also tried the whereagles any 1C = clubs or 22+ unbalanced or 24+ any shape and it's not horrible though our continuations are currently 'wing it' - very weak responses are the tricky ones not a rock crusher.

[sfi]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-October-08, 04:20, said:

Unfortunately BFACT only allows them for selection trials where the event being selected for also allows yellow systems. All the ACT clubs bow to the will of BFACT.

There is a non zero possibility we've met if you've played in Canberra at any point haha.

We've definitely played against each other on more than one occasion. ABF rather than BFACT regs control CBC events though, but this is probably veering away from general interest to the rest of the forum readers. I can discuss next time we're both at the club, or send me email - my address is in the CBC book.

The brief summary is that it looks like you need to give one month's notice (not one week) to the tournament secretary before playing a yellow system.