[rmnka447]

ArtK78, on 2015-January-12, 10:29, said:

I have always played 2-way Stayman when playing a weak NT except when my partner insisted on using transfers. I find that 2-way Stayman is superior to transfers when playing a weak NT - more so when playing a mini NT (10-13, used to be 10-12), as I do with my regular partner. Obviously, some have other opinions, including one poster who may often be wrong but is never in doubt.

The idea of rebidding 2NT holding 5 hearts on the auction 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ is interesting. We may incorporate it into our structure. Amazingly enough, in all of the years that I have played my current 2-way Stayman structure (about 20 years), this sequence has never come up.

By the way, one poster commented that one should not use the same structure as a passed hand. I am a firm believer that one should not use a weak NT opposite a passed hand, as you are voluntariy opening a balanced minimum hand 1NT opposite a hand that has less than an opening bid. This seems like an invitation to disaster. I note that I have seen a number of prominent players who do open a weak NT opposite a passed hand. I can only assume that their experience is that it is worthwhile to do so.

On the other hand, playing a mini NT opposite a passed hand is downright silly. In those situations where my regular partner and I employ the mini-NT (1st & 2nd seats nonvul), we also open 1 of a suit on all 10 counts. So, if partner is a passed hand, he has less than 10 HCP. Opening a 10-13 1NT opposite a hand known to have less than 10 HCP seems silly to me. We play strong 1NT openings opposite passed hands.

Certainly, some adjustment needs to be made in methods when a weak NT is opened in 3rd or 4th seat. Game force Stayman really doesn't apply anymore as responder can at best only have an invitational hand. That leaves a 2 ♦ response for some other use. For our teammates, a passed hand 2 ♦ response is an August 2 ♦ bid. It asks for opener's longest major to be bid (bidding ♥ if equal). It normally provides a way to run out of 1 NT with a 2 suited hand, but the responding hand could be up to invitational values if holding a 5-5 hand. It provides an assured way to get to at least a 7 card fit if you hold a "garbage" Stayman hand.

I don't see a third seat weak NT as a problem unless we catch partner with a complete bust. Those seem to come a lot less often than everyone fears. OTOH, opening 1 of a minor in 3rd seat certainly makes it easier for the opponents to get in the auction. If the points are fairly evenly distributed, then 1 NT really makes it tough for the opposition to compete.

BTW, just for the record, my favorite partner and I just play a non-forcing Stayman with weak NTs. We play weak NTs in all positions and all vulnerabilities. We don't play transfers. A 2 ♦ response is an August 2 ♦ bid.

[Jinksy]

My main problem with weak NT opposite a passed hand is the possibility of P inviting when I'm bottom-end. NV I think the preemptive value in third is ok, vul it's probably more dangerous than it's worth, but I really want to be able to sensibly bid for the part score with a decent 12 or mediocre 13 safe in the knowledge that I can cut the auction off below 2N.

[MrAce]

Jinksy, on 2015-January-12, 12:26, said:

My main problem with weak NT opposite a passed hand is the possibility of P inviting when I'm bottom-end. NV I think the preemptive value in third is ok, vul it's probably more dangerous than it's worth, but I really want to be able to sensibly bid for the part score with a decent 12 or mediocre 13 safe in the knowledge that I can cut the auction off below 2N.

That's why I like color sensitive NT ranges.

[Vampyr]

rmnka447, on 2015-January-12, 11:57, said:

I don't see a third seat weak NT as a problem unless we catch partner with a complete bust. Those seem to come a lot less often than everyone fears. OTOH, opening 1 of a minor in 3rd seat certainly makes it easier for the opponents to get in the auction. If the points are fairly evenly distributed, then 1 NT really makes it tough for the opposition to compete.

Still, I play strong in 3rd at teams, if my partner consents.

[jillybean]

This thread has been enlightening for me, from both a "fellow bbf personality" aspect and system wise.

When I decided to try weak nt, (my whim) I knew my partner had played weak nt 10 years ago so I was happy to go with his system. I usually play what my partners want to play and only until I've used the gadget for a while do I suggest modifications or replacements. This often happens after reading, learning and asking questions here. When my partner and I have talked about 2 way stayman, we have been talking about the 2C non force and 2D game force '2 way stayman'. This is what he refers to as “2 way stayman.”

Previously, I have only ever played strong no trump and transfers so the '2 way stayman' showing an invitational 5 card major was foreign to me and now that I understand, fills in a lot of gaps
Am I going to to play transfers over weak nt? I may try them in future but for now I'll be happy to play my partners system.

[mikestar13]

The 12-14 weak NT is a fairly good place to adopt a "pass or bash" style for NT hands: if we aren't going to look for a suit fit, respond 3NT with a 12 count and pass with 11. This makes it tougher on the enemy (you won't be in 2NT-1, they can't make close doubles of 1NT-2NT-3NT), and opens up conventional uses of 2NT to solve some problem hands. This concept fits equally well for 2-way Stayman or transfer methods. Something for you and partner to think about. Meckwell have used pass or bash opposite 14-16, John Montgomery (author of Revision Club) even advocates it opposite 16-18! (His Precision method opens balanced hands with less than 16 1♦, and his 1♣ promises shape or extra strength.)

[Mbodell]

ArtK78, on 2015-January-12, 10:29, said:

By the way, one poster commented that one should not use the same structure as a passed hand. I am a firm believer that one should not use a weak NT opposite a passed hand, as you are voluntariy opening a balanced minimum hand 1NT opposite a hand that has less than an opening bid. This seems like an invitation to disaster. I note that I have seen a number of prominent players who do open a weak NT opposite a passed hand. I can only assume that their experience is that it is worthwhile to do so.

I play weak nt always and/or variable mini and weak nt. I don't think it is a disaster to have a weak or mini nt opposite a passed hand (even in a system that opens basically all 10 point hands). It does mean that you are opening 1nt as a preempt, more than 1nt as a constructive game finding auction. I do think that in that case it is worth changing your system and essentially having all bids show the majors and/or spades. This is after having a large number of cases where we successfully got the preempt in, then transferred to the 2-red landing spot, then saw the opponents balance. If you are opening 1nt and game is off the table, pass and let them struggle, unless you have the boss suit.

[yunling]

Two-way stayman is inefficient. If you really dislike transfers, my suggestion is to play something like
2♣=normal stayman
2♦=ask 2-card major

[rmnka447]

jillybean, on 2015-January-12, 20:47, said:

This thread has been enlightening for me, from both a "fellow bbf personality" aspect and system wise.

When I decided to try weak nt, (my whim) I knew my partner had played weak nt 10 years ago so I was happy to go with his system. I usually play what my partners want to play and only until I've used the gadget for a while do I suggest modifications or replacements. This often happens after reading, learning and asking questions here. When my partner and I have talked about 2 way stayman, we have been talking about the 2C non force and 2D game force '2 way stayman'. This is what he refers to as “2 way stayman.”

Previously, I have only ever played strong no trump and transfers so the '2 way stayman' showing an invitational 5 card major was foreign to me and now that I understand, fills in a lot of gaps
Am I going to to play transfers over weak nt? I may try them in future but for now I'll be happy to play my partners system.

Sorry to respond to your post so late but was off at a tournament.

I just wanted to highlight a few things that are important when playing weak NTs.

First, you and your partner need some methods of getting to a decent resting spot when 1 NT is doubled for penalties. So long as your reasonably nimble at doing so when you can, 1 NT doubled becomes a lot less scary. Personally, I find the fear of going for a phone number in 1 NT doubled to be grossly overrated. In about 40+ years of playing weak NTs, I can count the big sets on one hand. Those have been more than offset by the times 1 NT doubled made or the doubler's partner couldn't sit so pulled the double to an inferior contract.

Second, you and your partner need to have clear understandings how to handle interference over 1 NT. One of the joys of playing weak NTs is collecting some +300s and +500s when responder has values and a stack.

Third, playing transfers is less important when game going hands are equal in strength. And if you have a major suit slam after a weak NT, the stronger hand would likely be exposed if you play transfers. Natural 2 ♥/2 ♠ signoffs also keep you playing the hands in the same direction as the strong NTers.

Finally, and most importantly, please understand that the auctions after opening 1 of a minor are significantly different than when playing strong NTs. For strong NTers, a 1 of a minor opener is a minimum (12-14) hand 75% of the time. For weak NTers, a 1 of a minor opener is a minimum hand only about a third of the time. And those minimum hands are unbalanced minimums. You may want to redefine some simple sounding sequences to be a little different meaning than they would when playing strong NTs. For instance, it becomes more important for an unbalanced minor hand to simply rebid the minor to limit the hand. Certainly you should expect reverses to come up more often and need to be clear on your agreements over them. One of the ongoing advantages you'll find of these "stronger" minor openings is that you'll be bidding more minor suit games and slams when it's right to do so.

Good luck!!