[nullve]

Variant I (not GCC legal):

1♣: as in Swedish Club¹, but denying 4 H if weak
1♦: as in Precision, but promising 4 H if bal.
...1♥ = 4+ S
...1♠ = 4+ H

Variant II (GCC legal):

1♣: as in Swedish Club¹, but denying 4 S if weak
1♦: as in Precision, but promising 4 S if bal.
...1♥ = 4+ H
...1♠ = 4+ S

Notice that after 1♦-1♠ in either variant, Opener can no longer have a balanced hand without 4c support for Responder's major.

Some reasons for Precision players to adopt this:

* the weak NT in 1♣ might deter opps from interfering on junk [a well-known reason for playing Swedish 1♣]
* transpositions to strong 1♣ auctions might be possible most of the time when Opener is strong [easier to achieve than after a std Swedish 1♣ opening, anyway]
* easier to bid after 1♦-1M, especially on partscore deals

¹ except that "strong unbal." starts at 16, not 17

[WGF_Flame]

it is easier to evaluate this system by comparing it to swidish club than to precision.
So basically you want to play swidish club and move balance hands with 4 hearts to the 1 diamond opening.
The 1 club will be a bit better but i dont see how you will gain much of having that type of hand ouside it.
The 1 diamond i think will suffer more since it will be less definded. the trick you mentioned i think will not be of much use in competative bid.

to explain what i mean but my last comment, lets just assume you played weak nt, and decided to seprate the strong nt between the 1c and 1d opening.
now in competition opener of 1 diamond will be able to double which will show a balance hand with 4 hearts.
I am not saying that this is a good idea either...

[Kungsgeten]

I also think that you should compare it to Swedish/Polish AND to Precision (and perhaps also natural). However I wonder if you've read the "Bergamo" system notes? They're in Swedish, but since you're from Norway I think there shouldn't be a problem. This system also excludes hands with four hearts from the 1C opening, but they instead choose to open 1H on a four card suit if 11--13 balanced. Bergamo can be found here: http://argandit.se/lasse/Bergamo.pdf

I think there may be many benefits om removing balanced hands with 4H from the 1C opening, but most of these will probably only matter in uncontested bidding and I think its better to consider the contested auction. We have removed 18-19 NT from our Swedish club, and I would say that it helps both in constructive and contested auctions.

[nullve]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-May-23, 04:51, said:

I wonder if you've read the "Bergamo" system notes? They're in Swedish, but since you're from Norway I think there shouldn't be a problem. This system also excludes hands with four hearts from the 1C opening, but they instead choose to open 1H on a four card suit if 11--13 balanced. Bergamo can be found here: http://argandit.se/lasse/Bergamo.pdf

Thanks for the link!

The notes look vaguely familiar, so I might have read them. That they're in Swedish is definitely not a problem, as I can understand 100 %. (Not sure I can write perfect Swedish, though. Would probably look like "svorsk" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svorsk).)

The reason for removing all balanced minima with 4 H from the 1♣ opening seems to be the same in Bergamo as in the versions of Swedish Club I've been toying with: to enable transfer responses to 1♣. However, while Bergamo uses the 1♦ response more or less as in Polish Club, I've always used it as "hearts or negative". (I'll explain why in a later post.)

[nullve]

Example structure (emulating 1993 Viking Club):

(I've put the corresponding Viking Club auction in blue (exact correspondence), green (steps saved) or red (different range).)

1♣-?: [with lots of errors corrected]

1♦ = "hearts or negative"¹: 0-7(8) / 8-11, 3-S4H5+m / 8+, 5+ H, no longer suit, shorter S / (8)9+, either 1444 or bal. w/ 3-S4H
1♥ = "spades": 8-11, 4S4-H5+m / 8+, 5+ S, no longer suit / (8)9+, either 4(441) or bal. w/ 4S4-H
1♠ = "no major": 8+, 3-S3-H5m4Om / (8)9+, bal. w/ 3-S3-H
1N = "clubs": 8+, 3-S3-H6+C / 12+, either 5+C4M, 6+C5O or 5D5C(!)
2♣ = "diamonds": 8+, 3-S3-H6+D / 12+, either 5+D4M or 6+D5O
(...)


1♣-1♦; ?:

1♥ = 16+, relay
1♠ = 11-13 bal.
(...)


1♣-1♦; 1♥-?:

1♠ = 0-7(8)
1N = 8-11, 3-S4H5+m / (8)9+, either 1444 or bal. w/ 3-S4H
...2♣ = 16+, relay
......2♦ = 8-11, 4+H5+D / (8)9-11, either 1444 or bal.
.........2♥
............2♠ = 4+H5+D [1♣-2♦; 2♥-2N; 3♣-3♦ minus 3(!) steps]
............2N = undefined
............3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♥; 2♠; 3♣+]
......2♥ = 12-14 bal.
.........2♠ = relay
............2N = undefined
............3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♥; 3♣+, but with 12-14 insted of (8)9-11]
......2♠ = 8-11, 4+H5+C [1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♥; 2♠-2N minus 1 step]
......2N = undefined
......3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♥; 2♠-3♣+, but with 15+ instead of (8)9-11]
2♣+ [1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♣+]



1♣-1♥; ?:

1♠ = 16+, relay
1N = 11-13, 3-S3-H
(...)
2♠ = 11-13, 4 S
(...)


1♣-1♥; 1♠-?:

1N = 8-11, 4S5+m / (8)9+, either 4(441) or bal. w/ 4 S
...2♣ = 16+, relay
......2♦ = 8-11, 4S5+D / (8)9-11, either 4(441) or bal.
.........2♥
............2♠ = 4+S5+D [1♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 2N-3♣ minus 2 steps]
............2N [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♥-2♠; 2N]
............3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣; 2♠-2N; 3♣+]
......2♥ = 12-14 bal.
.........2♠ = relay
............2N [1♣-1N; 2♥-2♠; 2N, but with 12-14 instead of (8)9-11]
............3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 2N-3♣+]
......2♠ = 8-11, 4+S5+C [1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♠; 2N-3♣ minus 2 steps]
......2N [1♣-1N; 2♥-2♠; 2N, but with 15+ instead of (8)9-11]
......3♣+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2♠; 2N; 3♣+, but with 15+ instead of (8)9-11]
2♣+ [1♣-1♠; 1N-2♣+]


1♣-1♠; ?:

1N = 11-13
2♣ = 16+, relay
(...)


1♣-1♠; 2♣-?:

2♦ = 8-11
...2♥
......2♠ = 5m4Om
.........2N = relay
............3♣ [1♣-2♥; 2♠-3♣]
............3♦+ [1♣-2♥; 2♠-2N; 3♣-3♦+]
......2N+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2N+]
2♥ = 12-14 bal.
...2♠ = relay
......2N+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-♦; 2♥-2N+]
2♠ = 12+, 5m4Om
...2N = relay
......3♣ [1♣-2♥; 2♠-3♣] minus 2 steps]
......3♦+ [1♣-2♥; 2♠-3♦; 3♥-3♠+ minus 2 steps]
2N+ [1♣-1N; 2♣-2N+, but with 15+ instead of (8)9-11]


1♣-1N; ?:

2♣ = 11-13
2♦ = 16+, relay
(...)


1♣-1N; 2♦-?:

2♥ = 12+, 4+H5+C
...2♠ = relay
......2N+ [1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♥; 2♠-3♣+ minus 1 step]
2♠ = 12+, 4+S5+C
...2N = relay
......3♣+ [1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♠; 2N-3♦+ minus 1 step]
2N+ [1♣-2♣; 2♦-2N+]


1♣-2♣; ?:

2♦ = 11-13
2♥ = 16+, relay
(...)


1♣-2♣; 2♥-?:

2♠ = 12+, 4+S5+D
...2N = relay
......3♣+ [1♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 2N-3♦+ minus 1 step]
2N = 12+, 4+H5+D
...3♣ = relay¨
......3♦+ [1♣-2♦; 2♥-2N; 3♣-3♥+ minus 1 step]
3♣+ [1♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 3♣+]


Note on hands with 8+ hcp, (4441):

* with 44(41): show 4S4H as if 4S4H(32), then 3rd step (3♠) = 4414; 4th step (3N) = 4441
* with 1444: show 4H4C as if 4H4C(32), then 3rd step (3N) = 1444
* with 4144: show 4S4C as if 4S4C(32), then 3rd step (3N) = 4144

¹ also used by

col3435 (Relay Millennium Club, mentioned here: http://www.bridgebas...ative-response/)
Free (2-way club, mentioned here: http://www.bridgebas...ative-response/)
jinksy (Fantunes variant: http://www.bridgebas...er-fantunes-1c/)
rbforster (Silent Club)
Zelandakh (strong club experiment, mentioned here: http://www.bridgebas...h-in-t-walshpc/)

This post has been edited by nullve: 2016-August-28, 04:04

[WellSpyder]

Interesting. I also play a Precision/Swedish Club hybrid, but we have gone the other way by moving weak hands without a 4-card major out of the 1♣ opening into 1♦. This makes the 1♦ opening bid a bit more nebulous than in Swedish Club, but it is much better defined than in most modern versions of Precision, normally showing at least 3 diamonds (occasionally exactly 3=3=2=5 shape), and either 5-4 or 4441 if rebidding a major. Knowing the weak version of 1♣ contains at least one 4-card major can help a lot in competitive auctions, and also means that there is no reason for a 1♣ opener ever to have to rebid a 3-card major. (In response to 1♣, 1♦ is a standard Precision-style negative, and 1♥ and 1♠ are inverted Precision-style 5-card positives.)

[nullve]

WellSpyder, on 2016-May-25, 01:41, said:

Interesting. I also play a Precision/Swedish Club hybrid, but we have gone the other way by moving weak hands without a 4-card major out of the 1♣ opening into 1♦. This makes the 1♦ opening bid a bit more nebulous than in Swedish Club, but it is much better defined than in most modern versions of Precision, normally showing at least 3 diamonds (occasionally exactly 3=3=2=5 shape), and either 5-4 or 4441 if rebidding a major. Knowing the weak version of 1♣ contains at least one 4-card major can help a lot in competitive auctions, and also means that there is no reason for a 1♣ opener ever to have to rebid a 3-card major. (In response to 1♣, 1♦ is a standard Precision-style negative, and 1♥ and 1♠ are inverted Precision-style 5-card positives.)

Also interesting. But how do you find 4-4 major fits when, say, Opener has 11-13 and Responder 8-11? Maybe it's not that important when also Responder is balanced?

[WellSpyder]

nullve, on 2016-May-25, 14:39, said:

Also interesting. But how do you find 4-4 major fits when, say, Opener has 11-13 and Responder 8-11? Maybe it's not that important when also Responder is balanced?

Sorry, I over-simplified the 1♦ response in trying to get on to explain that we still play sort-of transfer responses (which I think you said was one of the reasons you wanted to remove 4M from the weak version of 1♣). In fact we use the 1♦ response for most 0-7 hands OR 8-11 balanced. Now opener rebids 1M with either 11-13 and 4M OR 16-19 and 5M, so we have no problems finding 4-4 major fits. Putting 8-11 balanced hands into 1♦ also means that when the bidding goes 1♣- 1♦; 1♥/♠ - 1N; P we can still have 13 points opposite 11, so it is much less easy for oppo to double on modest hands than if we had a maximum of 7 opposite 13.

[awm]

Two of the major advantages of Polish/Swedish when compared to Precision are the natural 1♦ opening (weak notrump can open 1♣) and freeing up the 2♦ opening (three-suiters short in diamonds can open 1♣). This system seems to lose both those advantages!

When compared to Precision, Polish club is pretty far behind on the slam hands, and this system is not making it better. For example, your auction 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ is most of a level higher than 1♣-1♦ in precision and carries the same information (opener with 16+ any, response 0-7 any). This loss of space potentially makes it much harder to bid to the right contract. In addition you lose some ability to scramble with weak notrump opposite a weak hand, since in Polish you have 1♣-1♦-1M natural whereas here you are bidding 1♠ regardless of spade length.

Polish club is actually pretty far behind precision when opponents intervene. For example, 1♣-(2♠)-Pass-Pass and in strong club you can pass with 18 balanced because this is the expected hand and partner would've acted if he had enough opposite this hand. In polish/swedish you basically have to balance because partner cannot always safely act at the three-level on 7-9 hcp opposite the likely weak notrump. There are many other similar sequences. It is true that the opponents sometimes bid more aggressively over a "known to be strong" club than over a polish club, but this strategy often backfires against good pairs; I think at the top levels the defending side is actually not that crazy here because they don't want to give up a number (and good strong clubbers will extract enough numbers against truly unsound interference to compensate for any losses). And of course the unobstructed strong auctions are so much worse... watch the top Polish pairs a bit and you will see that the strong auctions are really not their forte.

[nullve]

awm, on 2016-May-27, 23:25, said:

Two of the major advantages of Polish/Swedish when compared to Precision are the natural 1♦ opening (weak notrump can open 1♣) and freeing up the 2♦ opening (three-suiters short in diamonds can open 1♣). This system seems to lose both those advantages!

Freeing up the 2♦ opening should be easy after dropping the requirement that 1♦ shows 2+ D.

awm, on 2016-May-27, 23:25, said:

When compared to Precision, Polish club is pretty far behind on the slam hands, and this system is not making it better. For example, your auction 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ is most of a level higher than 1♣-1♦ in precision and carries the same information (opener with 16+ any, response 0-7 any). This loss of space potentially makes it much harder to bid to the right contract. In addition you lose some ability to scramble with weak notrump opposite a weak hand, since in Polish you have 1♣-1♦-1M natural whereas here you are bidding 1♠ regardless of spade length.

My example system was designed to emulate 1♣-1♥+ in 1993 Viking Club. You're right about auctions starting 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1♠, of course, but I deliberatly included just enough rebid structure over 1♣-1♦ to carry out the emulation. In reality, there's no reason why Opener should relay on all 16+ hands, or even why 1♥ needs to be a pure relay instead of, say, "hearts or strong" (as in IMprecision).

Being able to stop in 1M is nice, but winning the race to 1N can also be nice, so I'm not sure how to evaluate the loss of natural (3+) 1M rebids.

awm, on 2016-May-27, 23:25, said:

Polish club is actually pretty far behind precision when opponents intervene. For example, 1♣-(2♠)-Pass-Pass and in strong club you can pass with 18 balanced because this is the expected hand and partner would've acted if he had enough opposite this hand. In polish/swedish you basically have to balance because partner cannot always safely act at the three-level on 7-9 hcp opposite the likely weak notrump. There are many other similar sequences.

I agree, but I also think it's also somewhat "unfair" to make this point. To make an analogy: One of the big advantages of the limited 1M openings in Precision is that Advancer is kept in the dark about the nature of Responder's M support over

(1M)-P-(4M),

and only pedants will make the point that after

1M-(P)-4M-(bid)

or

1M-(P)-4M-(bid)
P-(P),

it's actually the Precision pair that are at a disadvantage. Similarly, one of the advantages of Swedish Club compared with Precsion is supposed to be that auctions like

1♣-(2♠)-P-(P)

are less likely to occur. But when they occur and Opener has a strong hand, it's no doubt the pair playing Swedish Club that are at a disadvantage.

awm, on 2016-May-27, 23:25, said:

It is true that the opponents sometimes bid more aggressively over a "known to be strong" club than over a polish club, but this strategy often backfires against good pairs; I think at the top levels the defending side is actually not that crazy here because they don't want to give up a number (and good strong clubbers will extract enough numbers against truly unsound interference to compensate for any losses).

I think you're right, judging from what I've seen on Vugraph. So the point I made in the previous paragraph has to be modified accordingly.

[awm]

nullve, on 2016-May-28, 07:28, said:

I agree, but I also think it's also somewhat "unfair" to make this point. To make an analogy: One of the big advantages of the limited 1M openings in Precision is that Advancer is kept in the dark about the nature of Responder's M support over

(1M)-P-(4M),

and only pedants will make the point that after

1M-(P)-4M-(bid)

or

1M-(P)-4M-(bid)
P-(P),

it's actually the Precision pair that are at a disadvantage.

In fact this is a very overrated benefit of a strong club! The auction you gave is not necessarily the issue -- an appropriate treatment of double by opener helps a lot with this problem (double by opener should show desire to compete opposite a normal preempt but willing to defend opposite a min game force with only three-card support; opener is very unlikely to have a penalty double opposite a weak response anyway).

Rather, I think there are two major things that come up with this sequence. First, sucking the opponents in when you have only an eight-card fit is actually pretty unlikely; fourth seat will not normally bid here unless holding a VERY good hand or VERY shapely (and short in opener's major), both of which are overwhelmingly more likely when responder has a normal preempt. So while you occasionally get them to guess wrong, it's not actually very common. Second, a lot of people underestimate the range of strength in a precision opener. For example, the following two hands are 1♠ openings in pretty much any strong club system:

1. ♠KQxxx ♥QJxx ♦Kx ♣xx
2. ♠Axxxxx ♥Axxx ♦Axx ♣-

It's pretty easy to imagine slam making opposite hand two when game goes down opposite hand one. So if you're blasting 4♠ on a huge range, you will probably miss a lot of slams opposite hand two (or get too high/have bad slam auctions if opener is expected to bid over 4♠ with hand two). Anyway, the point is that the times when you actually win with such a blast are a fairly narrow window.

The real advantages of strong club are more around: 1. You can open light without having to worry about partner hanging you 2. You do a lot better on the minimum strong club hands (which often have awkward sequences in standard methods) 3. You're much better positioned on hands where opener has minimum high card strength but extra shape, because you don't have to worry about extra values (examples include both non-competitive sequences like 1M-1NT-3X and a lot of competitive sequences).

[Kungsgeten]

awm, on 2016-May-28, 10:48, said:

You do a lot better on the minimum strong club hands (which often have awkward sequences in standard methods)

Could you please expand this argument? I believe standard is better at finding part scores, while strong club is better when an early game force can be established. I'm not quite sure on this, but I think standard may be better at inviting game (compared to the rebids after a negative 1D in strong club), since the rebids in standard will show shape and degree of fit, while in strong club responder sometimes have to pass opener's rebid in case of a misfit? I know you play semi-positive responses, and I guess this helps a lot

[awm]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-May-28, 12:53, said:

Could you please expand this argument? I believe standard is better at finding part scores, while strong club is better when an early game force can be established. I'm not quite sure on this, but I think standard may be better at inviting game (compared to the rebids after a negative 1D in strong club), since the rebids in standard will show shape and degree of fit, while in strong club responder sometimes have to pass opener's rebid in case of a misfit? I know you play semi-positive responses, and I guess this helps a lot

Obviously some of this depends on your methods. The problem is that in standard methods opener's extras are concealed and sometimes you either miss a game or get too high. Here is a summary when opponents are passing:

A. Responder would pass a one-bid in standard. In a strong club you end up a level higher, but opener gets to show his second suit (if any) which might lead you to find a better fit or even a game. So you lose when your best spot is one of opener's longest suit, but you win when your best spot is opener's second suit (and win a lot when there's a game in that second suit).
B. Responder would not pass a one-bid in standard, but you don't have game values. In a strong club you're likely reaching a good partial. In standard, opener may need to make another try opposite a simple correction (i.e. 1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥-2NT?) and this can get you too high. You can also wind up in trouble if responder decides to bid very light with a long major and opener forces game on a misfit (again, not a problem in strong club).
C. Responder has enough for game, but would not have a game force opposite a natural opening. Now you're on track for a very good strong club auction, whereas in standard you could miss a game if responder is minimum (1♥-1♠-2♦-Pass) or cramp your sequence if opener game forces (1♥-1♠-3♣ and opener might not even HAVE clubs, and you are at the three-level).

Gazzilli does help with the above problems (and this is, more or less, the sole reason people PLAY Gazzilli, which is another indication that these hands are a real problem in standard). But it does create other issues as well.

There are also problems in competitive sequences; say the auction starts 1x-(2♠) and opener has a 4153 18-count for example. In standard, are you balancing if this passes back? You could easily miss a game if you don't, or go for a number if you do. This hand/sequence really isn't a problem in strong club.

[Kungsgeten]

awm: Thanks. The strong club framework I am most familiar with is where 1C is 16+ (or even 17+) and the 1D response is 0-7. Over this opener's 1H rebid is 20+ and others are limited to 16-19. With these methods in mind, I'm not sure I agree. Now in your last post you mentioned minimum strong club hands, so that's what I have in mind (perhaps 16-19).

A: Here strong club probably have an advantage, but it will be hard for opener to show two suits. The bidding will probably go 1C--1D; 1S or higher. Basically responder's choices are to raise, or bid a suit of his own (which he probably won't do with a very weak hand?).

B: Yes, in standard you can get too high, but Gazzilli solves some of the problems. Let's say the bidding starts 1H--1S; in standard, but in strong club it starts 1C--1D; 2H. Now responder hasn't shown his suit, so it seems to me that standard has a bit of an advantage.

C: Agree, this is the forte of strong club auctions. Sometimes you are at a tempo loss because it is somewhat harder to find double fits in strong club, compared to natural and Gazzilli.

Don't get me wrong: I do not argue that standard is better than strong club, I just liked your reasoning about the strong club but did not fully agree on this part.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-May-28, 16:53, said:

awm: Thanks. The strong club framework I am most familiar with is where 1C is 16+ (or even 17+) and the 1D response is 0-7. Over this opener's 1H rebid is 20+ and others are limited to 16-19. With these methods in mind, I'm not sure I agree.

But that's a poor method. If you're going to use 1C-1D, 1H as 20+ then it's better to use TOSR continuations...including the 1S rebid to promise a minor and a 2C rebid to promise majors rather than the natural rebids you have in mind.

I'm a big fan of IMPrecision's 1D as weak or strong, but if you're looking at a traditional 1D 0-7 you can also use Meckwell continuations (where 1M rebid is natural). Of course Meckwell depends on an opening 2N as strong (19-20 or thereabouts).

Maybe you'd like strong club if you were more familiar with better methods?

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2016-May-28, 17:57, said:

Maybe you'd like strong club if you were more familiar with better methods?

I do like strong club, and I've looked at IMPrecision, TOSR and Meckwell's rebid structure, but haven't played them. I'm not sure what's best, but among the strong clubbers I've met the 1♥ strong rebid, rest natural, is by far the most common. I guess the Meckwell style may be more popular in the USA?

I think the popularity of the 1♥ string rebid is because of that it is easy to remember, and its easy to establish a GF afterwards.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-May-28, 18:20, said:

I do like strong club, and I've looked at IMPrecision, TOSR and Meckwell's rebid structure, but haven't played them. I'm not sure what's best, but among the strong clubbers I've met the 1♥ strong rebid, rest natural, is by far the most common. I guess the Meckwell style may be more popular in the USA?

I think the popularity of the 1♥ string rebid is because of that it is easy to remember, and its easy to establish a GF afterwards.

Have you played a symmetric relay structure? That would be the place to start. Then the next step would be Meckwell continuations after 1C-1D (0-7) along with the following relay responses to 1C

1H-all with 4S except 4S/5+H
1S-bal without 4S, 6D, or 5D/4C
1N-5H without 4S
2C-6C, 5C/4+D
2D-4+H, 5+C
2H-4H/5+D
2S-3-suited short spade
etc-4S/5+H

These responses are mostly based on IMPrecision and you can look up awm's notes to see how they unfold. Once you're comfortable with that, go to full IMPrecision with its 1D weak or GF response.

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2016-May-28, 22:25, said:

Have you played a symmetric relay structure?

Yes. Before switching to Swedish club me and my partner played a version of Moscito (and before that we played a forcing pass system, also with symmetric relays). We still use symmetric relays, but only after our 1♦ opening. We wanted a more natural approach since we play a lot of matchpoints and having to relay nearly all GF hands took too much time and energy. We did not play the Moscito 1♣ continuations however. Our continuations looked like this:

1♣ (any 15+)---
1♦ = 0--8
1♥ = 13+, symmetric continuation where opener shows shape instead of responder. Other positives show 9--12.
1♠ = 5+♥ / balanced without five card major / any 4441 / 5♣440
1NT = 5+♠
2♣ = 5+♦, may have 4+♣ or 4♥.
2♦ = 5+♣, no major.
2♥ = 4♠, 5+♦ or 5♦440
2♠ = 4♥, 5+♣. Short legged two-suiter.
2NT = 5-5 majors, long legged two-suiter.
3♣+ = 4♠, 5+♣. Short legged two-suiter.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-May-29, 02:08, said:

1♣ (any 15+)---
1♦ = 0--8
1♥ = 13+, symmetric continuation where opener shows shape instead of responder. Other positives show 9--12.
1♠ = 5+♥ / balanced without five card major / any 4441 / 5♣440
1NT = 5+♠
2♣ = 5+♦, may have 4+♣ or 4♥.
2♦ = 5+♣, no major.
2♥ = 4♠, 5+♦ or 5♦440
2♠ = 4♥, 5+♣. Short legged two-suiter.
2NT = 5-5 majors, long legged two-suiter.
3♣+ = 4♠, 5+♣. Short legged two-suiter.

I don't think that's a very good structure, and it isn't one that wouldn't be useful in 3/4 position so you would wind up playing 2 structures. Look how often it conceals major suit information. 1C-1S conceals hearts and sometimes four spades. 1C-1N sometimes can conceal 4H. 1C-2C can conceal 4H. 1C-2H doesn't promise spades either? So compare to what I gave you where 1C-1H doesn't promise 5 spades but promises 4+ spades, may conceal hearts but only when spades are equal or longer in length. Arguably the most important major suit information is given right away.

It's really important to find your strain before the auction becomes competitive. 1C-1S (3D) and now what? It's very important in designing a relay structure to take into account that you may not be having a relay auction at all.

1C-1H which is a positive in the sense that the other bids are limited, but now you have AKxxx void KQxx Qxxx presumably asking for opener's balanced shape? Or maybe you have a fix for that? Because it's an awful position to be in. But also opener is +1 for symmetric I think? And the use of this size information drives much of your limited hand patterns to be +1 as well?

There's really a lot of awful strong club structures out there. It can make a huge difference in satisfaction with playing strong club.

[nullve]

Structure based on TOSR and Silent Club:

1♣-?:

1♦ = 0-7, any / 8+, either H 1-suiter, H+m 2-suiter, 4+S5+H3-D3-C, 1444, 4H4m(32) or 3433 / 8+, 4D4C(32) or 33(43) (=> 1♥ = 16+ something)
1♥ = 8+, either S 1-suiter, S+m 2-suiter, S+H+m 3-suiter, 5+S4H3-D3-C, 4144, 4S(432) or 4333 (=> 1♠ = 16+, relay)
1♠ = 8+, C 1-suiter / ? (=> 1N = 16+, relay)
1N = 8+, either D 1-suiter or D+C 2-suiter (=> 2♣ = 16+, relay)
(...)

1♣-1♦; 1♥-?:

1♠ = 0-7, any
Else:
1N = H+C 2-suiter or 4+S5+H3-D3-C
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = H+C 2-suiter, non-reverser [TOSR's 1♣-1N; 2♣-2♦]
......2♥ = H+C 2-suiter, reverser [TOSR's 1♣-1N; 2♣-2♥]
......2♠ = 5+S5+H [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-2♠]
......2N+ = 4S5+H, 2-suited [1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-2♥; 2♠-2N+]
2♣ = H+D 2-suiter [TOSR's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♣]
2♦ = 3433, 4H4m(32) or 1444
...2♥ = relay
......2♠ = 24(43) [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠]
......2N = 3433 or 1444
.........3♣ = relay
............3♦ = 3433 [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦]
............3♥+ = 1444
......3♣+ = 34(42) [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♦; 2♥-3♣+]
2♥ = 33(43) or (32)44 [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♥]
2♠+ = H 1-suited [TOSR's 1♣-1N; 2♣-2♠+]


1♣-1♥; 1♠-?:

1N = S+C 2-suiter, 5+S4H or 44(32)
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = S+C, 2-suiter, non-reverser [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♦]
......2♥ = S+C, 2-suiter, reverser [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♥]
......2♠ = 44(32) [TOSR's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠]
......2N+ = 5+S4H, 2-suited [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1N-2♣; 2N+]
2♣ = S+D 2-suiter [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♣]
2♦ = 4333, 4S4m(32) or 4144
...2♥= relay
......2♠ = 42(43) [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-2♠]
......2N = 4333 or 4144
.........3♣ = relay
............3♦ = 4333
............3♥+ = 4144
......3♣+ = 43(42) [Silent Club's 1♣-1♠; 1N-3♣+]
2♥ = S+H+m 3-suiter
2♠+ = S 1-suiter [TOSR's 1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♠+]


1♣-1♠; 1N-?:

2♣ = ?
2♦ = ?
2♥ = ?
2♠+ = C 1-suiter [TOSR's 1♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠+]


1♣-1N; 2♣-?:

2♦ = D+C 2-suiter, non-reverser
...2♥ = relay
......2♠+ [TOSR's 1♣-2♠+]
2♥ = D+C 2-suiter, reverser [TOSR's 1♣-2♥]
2♠+ = D 1-suiter [TOSR's 1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♠+]

Haven't dealt with 8+, 0M(544) yet.