[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-27, 01:13, said:

Is it just me or does Bob Jones seem to be more and more "erratic" in his selection of bids for his weekly bridge quizzes?

This hand particularly has me bugged.

♠ 10 7
♥ A 5
♦ A K 9 8 3 2
♣ A 8 5

N-S Vul, you are S dealer.

In his latest column from 12/24/16, he says open this 1NT. I'm trying to see the long run logic here but it escapes me. It would seem to be impossible to redescribe this hand in terms of diamonds and suit play once NT has been called. Plus, it's not like you're trying to protect the lead coming into your hand with tenaces.

Enlighten me oh wise players! I am getting back into the game after a long absence.

Either 1D or 1NT is an acceptable call. You need to agree with your partner what you want to do with these sorts of hands.

In favor of 1D:
You are more likely to go plus if the hand is a part-score hand
You will generally get to the right game
If that game is 3NT, you'll get to it from the right direction more often than not
You are less likely to miss a diamond slam

In favor of 1NT:
You will sometimes be in a higher-scoring partial (MP only)
You will make game more often (you'll get to some think 3NT contracts that make)
You will have a tough rebid if partner responds 1M (2D is an underbid; 3D is an overbid; I would choose the overbid, but ....)
You are more likely to keep the opponents out of the auction if they have a partial or game in a major

All in all, it's close, and I don't think one can criticize either bid.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-27, 01:13, said:

Is it just me or does Bob Jones seem to be more and more "erratic" in his selection of bids for his weekly bridge quizzes?

This hand particularly has me bugged.

♠ 10 7
♥ A 5
♦ A K 9 8 3 2
♣ A 8 5

N-S Vul, you are S dealer.

In his latest column from 12/24/16, he says open this 1NT. I'm trying to see the long run logic here but it escapes me. It would seem to be impossible to redescribe this hand in terms of diamonds and suit play once NT has been called. Plus, it's not like you're trying to protect the lead coming into your hand with tenaces.

Enlighten me oh wise players! I am getting back into the game after a long absence.

Either 1D or 1NT is an acceptable call. You need to agree with your partner what you want to do with these sorts of hands.

In favor of 1D:
You are more likely to go plus if the hand is a part-score hand
You will generally get to the right game
If that game is 3NT, you'll get to it from the right direction more often than not
You are less likely to miss a diamond slam

In favor of 1NT:
You will sometimes be in a higher-scoring partial (MP only)
You will make game more often (you'll get to some think 3NT contracts that make)
You will have a tough rebid if partner responds 1M (2D is an underbid; 3D is an overbid; I would choose the overbid, but ....)
You are more likely to keep the opponents out of the auction if they have a partial or game in a major

All in all, it's close, and I don't think one can criticize either bid.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-27, 01:13, said:

Is it just me or does Bob Jones seem to be more and more "erratic" in his selection of bids for his weekly bridge quizzes?

This hand particularly has me bugged.

♠ 10 7
♥ A 5
♦ A K 9 8 3 2
♣ A 8 5

N-S Vul, you are S dealer.

In his latest column from 12/24/16, he says open this 1NT. I'm trying to see the long run logic here but it escapes me. It would seem to be impossible to redescribe this hand in terms of diamonds and suit play once NT has been called. Plus, it's not like you're trying to protect the lead coming into your hand with tenaces.

Enlighten me oh wise players! I am getting back into the game after a long absence.

Either 1D or 1NT is an acceptable call. You need to agree with your partner what you want to do with these sorts of hands.

In favor of 1D:
You are more likely to go plus if the hand is a part-score hand
You will generally get to the right game
If that game is 3NT, you'll get to it from the right direction more often than not
You are less likely to miss a diamond slam

In favor of 1NT:
You will sometimes be in a higher-scoring partial (MP only)
You will make game more often (you'll get to some think 3NT contracts that make)
You will have a tough rebid if partner responds 1M (2D is an underbid; 3D is an overbid; I would choose the overbid, but ....)
You are more likely to keep the opponents out of the auction if they have a partial or game in a major

All in all, it's close, and I don't think one can criticize either bid.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-27, 01:13, said:

Is it just me or does Bob Jones seem to be more and more "erratic" in his selection of bids for his weekly bridge quizzes?

This hand particularly has me bugged.

♠ 10 7
♥ A 5
♦ A K 9 8 3 2
♣ A 8 5

N-S Vul, you are S dealer.

In his latest column from 12/24/16, he says open this 1NT. I'm trying to see the long run logic here but it escapes me. It would seem to be impossible to redescribe this hand in terms of diamonds and suit play once NT has been called. Plus, it's not like you're trying to protect the lead coming into your hand with tenaces.

Enlighten me oh wise players! I am getting back into the game after a long absence.

Either 1D or 1NT is an acceptable call. You need to agree with your partner what you want to do with these sorts of hands.

In favor of 1D:
You are more likely to go plus if the hand is a part-score hand
You will generally get to the right game
If that game is 3NT, you'll get to it from the right direction more often than not
You are less likely to miss a diamond slam

In favor of 1NT:
You will sometimes be in a higher-scoring partial (MP only)
You will make game more often (you'll get to some think 3NT contracts that make)
You will have a tough rebid if partner responds 1M (2D is an underbid; 3D is an overbid; I would choose the overbid, but ....)
You are more likely to keep the opponents out of the auction if they have a partial or game in a major

All in all, it's close, and I don't think one can criticize either bid.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-27, 01:13, said:

Is it just me or does Bob Jones seem to be more and more "erratic" in his selection of bids for his weekly bridge quizzes?

This hand particularly has me bugged.

♠ 10 7
♥ A 5
♦ A K 9 8 3 2
♣ A 8 5

N-S Vul, you are S dealer.

In his latest column from 12/24/16, he says open this 1NT. I'm trying to see the long run logic here but it escapes me. It would seem to be impossible to redescribe this hand in terms of diamonds and suit play once NT has been called. Plus, it's not like you're trying to protect the lead coming into your hand with tenaces.

Enlighten me oh wise players! I am getting back into the game after a long absence.

Either 1D or 1NT is an acceptable call. You need to agree with your partner what you want to do with these sorts of hands.

In favor of 1D:
You are more likely to go plus if the hand is a part-score hand
You will generally get to the right game
If that game is 3NT, you'll get to it from the right direction more often than not
You are less likely to miss a diamond slam

In favor of 1NT:
You will sometimes be in a higher-scoring partial (MP only)
You will make game more often (you'll get to some thin 3NT contracts that make)
You will have a tough rebid if you open 1D and partner responds 1M (2D is an underbid; 3D is an overbid; I would choose the overbid, but ....)
You are more likely to keep the opponents out of the auction if they have a partial or game in a major

All in all, it's close, and I don't think one can criticize either bid.

Cheers,
Mike

[Phil]

miamijd, on 2016-December-28, 13:44, said:

1. Of course 3H is forcing. Since you bid 1h on the first round, 3H should show at least 5 good hearts (often 6). If you have a hand that isn't worth game, you have a perfectly fine call at your disposal: pass (and let partner play 3D with his promised good 6-bagger or better).

2. 3sp on this auction ought to show a spade fragment. You don't ask for stoppers when there are two unbid suits (you show them).

Cheers,
Mike

You might be surprised to discover these arent universal, except the '3H is forcing' part.

[svengolly]

SteveMoe, on 2016-December-27, 20:06, said:

This hand is too strong for a 15-17 1NT opening bid. 7 Controls and 15 HCP, no Q's - all point to 1♦ then 3♦. 1NT will make finding a ♦ slam difficult. Opening 1NT on 6223 shapes with a 6-card minor is old hat.

Partially my point in the original post. This does not "look" like a NT hand and for sure if we're going to play it in NT, I'd want the lead coming into pard (where the Q's live).

[svengolly]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-27, 15:15, said:

I have no clue who Bob Jones is but I disagree with him this time.

Jones and Tannah Hirsch share writing duties on what used to be the old Charles Goren daily newspaper column on bridge. For awhile it was penned by Omar Sharif & Hirsch. More recently Hirsch & Jones. Jones does a weekly bridge bidding quiz in the Saturday column. I'm not keen on a lot of his answers but his hand reports are generally worth reading.

[svengolly]

Here's another Bob Jones quiz hand:

SOUTH
♠ J 10 8
♥ K 6 4
♦ 9 4
♣ A K 9 7 4

No mention of vulnerability or scoring. Bidding goes P-P-P to you. Open or not?

ANSWER BELOW WITH SPOILER

Spoiler

He would open 1♣ unconditionally. Playing against good opps, I'd pass in a heartbeat. MAYBE playing against weak opps I'd consider opening. But it's a rag no matter what. I actually wrote him about this one asking if any other conditions would change his mind. He was a bit dismissive and said no. Keep in mind the column is targeted to the general bridge playing audience, not experts.

[rmnka447]

I think the "1 NT opener" hand is at the cusp between a clear cut strong 3 ♦ jump rebid hand and a minimum 2 ♦ rebid hand. If the ♦ suit were poorer, say something like ♠ Kx ♥ Axx ♦ A98xxx ♣ Ax, I think 1 NT would be a clear cut bid. Playing 3 ♦ opposite a small doubleton or stiff with this alternative hand might not be very appetizing. OTOH, if the ♦ suit were stronger, say ♠ xx ♥ Kxx ♦ AKJ10xx ♣ Ax, playing opposite a small doubleton or stiff wouldn't be much of an issue. So the question is "At what point does the ♦ suit quality get good enough to emphasize the ♦ versus bidding NT?" I'd be apt to say they were plenty good with this second example and open 1 ♦ planning to rebid 3 ♦ even though it's only a 15 pointer.

The actual hand asked about is between these examples. I think the suggestion to open that hand 1 NT indicates that the "expert"(?) feels this hand just doesn't rate an upgrade to a jump rebid hand. I'd probably do the same. I think my absolute floor for a jump rebid hand would be ♦ AK109xx instead of ♦ AK98xx.


The second hand broaches the question of how much you need for a 4th seat opener. It does so in a couple ways. First, it's an 11 point, 2 1/2 QT hand minor hand. Second, points plus ♠ only equal 14 -- not enough according to a popular rule of thumb. If the ♣ were a major, I doubt that many people would have a problem opening it. But there is some rationale for passing a minor hand. I'm probably a glutton for punishment, but I'd open anyhow.

[svengolly]

rmnka447, on 2016-December-28, 19:51, said:

I think the "1 NT opener" hand is at the cusp between a clear cut strong 3 ♦ jump rebid hand and a minimum 2 ♦ rebid hand.

Which is why I favor 1 ♦. It's not so unilateral and you have a better chance to place the contract based on what the opponents and pard has/does.

rmnka447, on 2016-December-28, 19:51, said:

The second hand broaches the question of how much you need for a 4th seat opener. It does so in a couple ways. First, it's an 11 point, 2 1/2 QT hand minor hand. Second, points plus ♠ only equal 14 -- not enough according to a popular rule of thumb. If the ♣ were a major, I doubt that many people would have a problem opening it. But there is some rationale for passing a minor hand. I'm probably a glutton for punishment, but I'd open anyhow.

What I find ugly about both hands is that Jones presents his bid solutions as absolutes. No shades of gray. And to me that's just wrong for a national / general bridge column. I can just hear Bad Luck Louie saying, "But Jones says OK to open a good 6-card minor as 1 NT."

[m1cha]

svengolly, on 2016-December-28, 18:29, said:

SOUTH
♠ J 10 8
♥ K 6 4
♦ 9 4
♣ A K 9 7 4

No mention of vulnerability or scoring. Bidding goes P-P-P to you. Open or not?

I'd open, too. To me the good 5-card suit is worth a point, so it's a 12-point hand. K&R gives it 12.25 points.

These days I even open worse hands such as
♠ J 10 8, ♥ K 7 6 4, ♦ 9 4, ♣ A K 9 4,
even
♠ J 10 8, ♥ K 6 4, ♦ 9 7 4, ♣ A K 9 4.
I wouldn't have done so a year ago, but since that time I've observed my results playing robots best hand (which is similar to opening in 4th seat because you know that no other player has a stronger hand) and I found out that passing is often bad since we statistically have the majority of points. The thing is: If we have 3-3 or better in the majors, opponents usually don't have (or find) a good fit in either major, and if partner responds 1M, I just pass. So I frequently get away with playing 1NT= or 1M=/+1(/+2) in either major in a 4-3 fit or better. I don't have the statistical figures but I believe the success rate is clearly beyond 60 %. If RHO gets in, I can double or redouble for support and play on the 2 level, often successful, or drive opponents into a contract they cannot make.

The thing to be afraid of is a 2NT response from partner. Also tough occasionally is something like 1♣ (1♠) 2♠ ... upon which I have to play on the 3 level but then I often make it.

I do not open 11-point hands with a doubleton in either major because then opponents usually do find their fit and can outbid us making their part score contract on the 2 level.

I also open 10-point hands with 4-4 in the majors for testing purposes, so to say, and I believe it's good. But these hands are rare in GIB and I am not so confident.

[svengolly]

m1cha, on 2016-December-28, 20:41, said:

I'd open, too. To me the good 5-card suit is worth a point, so it's a 12-point hand. K&R gives it 12.25 points.

Interesting. We're not talking robots on this hand. Live bridge. Do you still do it against good opps or not?

[Phil]

svengolly, on 2016-December-28, 22:20, said:

Interesting. We're not talking robots on this hand. Live bridge. Do you still do it against good opps or not?

Hi Svengolly -

I think the modern attitude about opening in 4th seat is if its a normal opening bid you would make in any other seat that you still open. Pearson points are used only to upgrade sub-minimum hands. For instance, its probably right to pass with x AKxxx QJxx xxx, but perfectly fine to open with QJxx AKxxx xxx x.

The hand in question is a very nice 11 that you should open in any seat.

[msjennifer]

svengolly, on 2016-December-28, 18:29, said:

Here's another Bob Jones quiz hand:

SOUTH
♠ J 10 8
♥ K 6 4
♦ 9 4
♣ A K 9 7 4

No mention of vulnerability or scoring. Bidding goes P-P-P to you. Open or not?

ANSWER BELOW WITH SPOILER

Spoiler

He would open 1♣ unconditionally. Playing against good opps, I'd pass in a heartbeat. MAYBE playing against weak opps I'd consider opening. But it's a rag no matter what. I actually wrote him about this one asking if any other conditions would change his mind. He was a bit dismissive and said no. Keep in mind the column is targeted to the general bridge playing audience, not experts.

11HCP,8 losers and as some will say the so-called rule of 20 and 15,go against opening this hand.However 2and1/2 quick tricks,5Carder suit headed by AK,Decent support for either major AND the fact that no one has tried to make a sub opening (10/11HCP) with a five card major or a weak 2 opening far outweigh the negative reasons.I,personally,am an aggressive player and will certainly open this hand One Club.Of course,quite a few may Pass this hand without a wink.

[m1cha]

svengolly, on 2016-December-28, 22:20, said:

Interesting. We're not talking robots on this hand. Live bridge. Do you still do it against good opps or not?

Why exactly should that matter? After all I'm playing against other players and my real opponents are humans playing against the same players.

Okay, if I were playing at the table against some excellent players and I were satisfied with a 40 % result, I'd rather pass.

[miamijd]

Phil, on 2016-December-28, 14:47, said:

You might be surprised to discover these arent universal, except the '3H is forcing' part.

Not universal (other than 3h is forcing), but generally accepted default agreements. You can define 3S in this auction a number of ways, but if it were undiscussed, it ought to show a stop. You could also use it as a slam try or a choice of games.

Mike

[miamijd]

svengolly, on 2016-December-28, 18:29, said:

Here's another Bob Jones quiz hand:

SOUTH
♠ J 10 8
♥ K 6 4
♦ 9 4
♣ A K 9 7 4

No mention of vulnerability or scoring. Bidding goes P-P-P to you. Open or not?

ANSWER BELOW WITH SPOILER

Spoiler

He would open 1♣ unconditionally. Playing against good opps, I'd pass in a heartbeat. MAYBE playing against weak opps I'd consider opening. But it's a rag no matter what. I actually wrote him about this one asking if any other conditions would change his mind. He was a bit dismissive and said no. Keep in mind the column is targeted to the general bridge playing audience, not experts.

I'd open it in MPs, but I wouldn't with a doubleton in either major rather than in diamonds. I'd probably pass in IMP and devote my brain focus to a hand that mattered.

CHeers,
mike

[Cthulhu D]

miamijd, on 2016-December-29, 23:50, said:

I'd open it in MPs, but I wouldn't with a doubleton in either major rather than in diamonds. I'd probably pass in IMP and devote my brain focus to a hand that mattered.

CHeers,
mike

My take on opening depends entirely on what partner thinks is an opener. With my regular P he's opening all 11s and some 10s and has a pile of preempts so if he's passed and opponents are sound bidders I'd strongly consider pass.

If you play Ekrens the chance of them having a major fit surely goes way up as well and thus bidding is more counter productive. If you played a weak NT in 4th though I think I'd be more likely to open 1NT?