[Cyberyeti]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-19, 05:27, said:

You have tried every way to run around this hand which is the functional equivalent of a 22 HCP hand. I have showed you three different ways to justify the 2 ♣ open and none of them, including the K&R calculator, is over the top.

You haven't argued against the hand having at most 4 losers per LTC. I showed you some partnerships play 8.5+ tricks as 2 ♣ open, so the whole "this hand is nowhere near 2 clubs"... That would be true if you downgrade 7 card suits containing 3 of 5 honors.

This hand is the functional equivalent of a 22 HCP hand and it has at most 4 losers per LTC. Its intrinsic value is hidden in the honors-rich 7 card ♦ suit that folks are dismissing in their initial hand evaluation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I stand by my 2♣ open because I know the masses have very entrenched beliefs about the type of uniform a 2♣ hand must wear. But I don't ascribe to those notions when the arithmetic says 22 HCP and the LTC analysis says a trick short of game.

So you open 2♣ on 9 solid and out then ? Losers are not everything.

You are NOT a trick short of game, most of the time you need at least 2 high cards in the hand opposite on that hand barring partner having a lot of diamonds or hearts.

A random 22 point hand is NOT a 2♣ opener for most people.

[rmnka447]

If the auction is passed to East, East would normally open 1 ♦.

After an initial pass, West has a little more freedom in responding to East. The problem with West opening initially is that West may have problems stopping East who has 18 real and likely would have slam investigation in sight. West has two choices in responding, 1 ♠ or 2 ♣. 1 ♠ gets West's major suit in view immediately and keeps the bidding low. 2 ♣ is a bit more descriptive, but suppresses ♠. West does have a big playing hand IF a fit can be found but may not be worth so if there is a misfit.

I'd probably bid 2 ♣.

After West's response, East has a choice of two bids. One is a jump rebid in ♦ usually showing 16-18 and s good 6 card suit. East is a little heavy for that bid, but West's 2 ♣ response has the initial markings of a misfit. The other choice is a reverse with a "hasty" 2 ♥ bid on a 3 card ♥ suit. It could cause a problem if West has a 4+ ♥ fit and raises ♥.

After a 3 ♦ jump rebid, West could pass or push on. West hand just seems to have too much value to pass. So the likely bid is 3 ♠ after which East has an easy 3 NT call.

After a 2 ♥ reverse, let's assume the partner ship plays a simple 2 NT or 4th suit whichever is cheapest could be the start of a sign off. Here West would bid 2 ♠, which could be the start of a signoff. East would bid 3 ♦, and West would bid 3 ♠ patterning out and East would have a choice of 3 NT or 4 ♠ as games.

Recap of auctions:

P - 1 ♦
2 ♣- 3 ♦
3 ♠- 3 NT

or

P - 1 ♦
2 ♣- 2 ♥
2 ♠- 3 ♦
3 ♠- 3 NT or 4 ♠

[johnu]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-18, 18:17, said:

Nope...2 club open....has no more than 4 losers per LTC! or do you see 5 or 6 losers per LTC. Hello? See explanation in the post above for a full hand evaluation that justifies the 2 club opening. I came up with an adjusted HCP count of 22.

First, you seem to think that South should not open 2♥. If my partner did not open with a preemptive bid on that hand, I would seriously ask them if they had missorted their hand Passing is not an acceptable option IMO. You should never be able to open 2♣.

Next, is 2♣ a reasonable bid? You have a broken 7 card suit, you are on the low end of high cards, and your suit is diamonds, not a major. I can think of an auction where this could work out well,

2♣ 2♦
3♦ 3♥

but I can think of a lot more where the auction goes off the tracks. I would rate opening bids as:

1♦ - 100
2♣ - 40
Other - 0

What's truly ridiculous is your suggestion that the auction would go

2♣ 3♣
3NT - Final bid

I nominate that auction for the Best Bidding of the Year award.

[drewolson]

Thanks for all the discussion so far, it's been very enlightening and given me and my partner a lot to digest on the hand.

[RedSpawn]

johnu, on 2017-April-19, 11:16, said:

First, you seem to think that South should not open 2♥. If my partner did not open with a preemptive bid on that hand, I would seriously ask them if they had missorted their hand Passing is not an acceptable option IMO. You should never be able to open 2♣.

Next, is 2♣ a reasonable bid? You have a broken 7 card suit, you are on the low end of high cards, and your suit is diamonds, not a major. I can think of an auction where this could work out well,

2♣ 2♦
3♦ 3♥

but I can think of a lot more where the auction goes off the tracks. I would rate opening bids as:

1♦ - 100
2♣ - 40
Other - 0

What's truly ridiculous is your suggestion that the auction would go

2♣ 3♣
3NT - Final bid

I nominate that auction for the Best Bidding of the Year award.

Honestly, the laughable issue is how some have tried to tell me East's hand simply can not be 2 ♣ period and I showed you three different ways it could be, including K&R statistics and LTC analysis.

No one denied the 4 loser count because that doesn't fit their profile or the answer they're looking for.

Some begged to differ on the adjusted 22 HCP which was backed up with an arithmetic based hand evaluation. The hand's rated value was also further substantiated by K&R which is not gospel, but it is a decent hand evaluator.

So now we have transitioned from East's hand being "no where near 2 clubs" to a "random 22 point hand" to a hand having "a broken 7 card suit" containing 2 of the top 3 honors and 3 of 5 total honors.

Nice switch out, johnu, but errrr no.

The slip sliding and back pedaling I saw about East's hand is not in my string.

Please send a note to K&R and tell them their hand evaluator is jacked up and broken and highly mistaken since there is no way East's hand could ever be anywhere near a 22 points hand.

So, we must open 1♦ only for a hand rated at 22 points?

Seriously?

There is no right answer, but a 2 club open by East is valid IF it is allowed to be made before other preemptive bids are made. IF other bids are made, we can use other tools in the toolkit for that.

[johnu]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-19, 11:37, said:

Nice switch out, johnu, but errrr no.

??? My original post was about the total nonsense of your comment about South's 2♥ opening and your entire 2♣ auction. Please comment about why you think South does not have an opening bid. Then comment why you think that you can stop in 3NT after opening 2♣. Unless you are playing something like the German Doctors system, you can't.

[RedSpawn]

johnu, on 2017-April-19, 11:59, said:

??? My original post was about the total nonsense of your comment about South's 2♥ opening and your entire 2♣ auction. Please comment about why you think South does not have an opening bid. Then comment why you think that you can stop in 3NT after opening 2♣. Unless you are playing something like the German Doctors system, you can't.

The reason I am assuming other people pass to East is because, in the middle of the post chain, the original poster said for the sake of discussion, assume all parties pass to East. That is why South would not open 2 ♥. So the hole you are looking for in my absurd analysis does not reside with the fact that South could open 2♥.

Of course, you would have to read the entire string to see that before you went into the dismissive "2 ♣ ....that's nonsense" mode. . . lol.

The 2♣ open is not nonsense. South might preempt but the person asking says South passes. You can disagree, but East's hand qualifies for a majestic 2 clubs open despite the fact that it goes against every fiber of your bridge sensibilities.

[Jinksy]

Anyone remember this hand?

---

It's got 7 losers - so we should open it 1♥. Although on K&R, it scores 7.8, so I guess it's a toss-up between 1♥ or 2.

[RedSpawn]

Jinksy, on 2017-April-19, 13:07, said:

Anyone remember this hand?

---

It's got 7 losers - so we should open it 1♥. Although on K&R, it scores 7.8, so I guess it's a toss-up between 1♥ or 2.

There is a fallacy of comparison here.

A hand with Zero quick tricks does not qualify for a One of anything open. So it doesn't qualify for a 1 heart open. Based on quality of the heart suit, it should not be opened 4♥ either as such a tactic effectively places a gag order on your partner.

Now, if you want to go for a 2hearts or 3 hearts open, go ahead. Not my style but I can see a valid case being made for 2♥ or 3 ♥ if you are itching to report your heart suit.

Now with respect to K&R, the tool is assigning 5 length points to a 9 card suit, which is more than reasonable. It is also giving full value to the queen of diamond trapped in the doubleton. I don't agree with the 2 point queen. That puts us at 7 points, so I am not seeing the problem with K&R adding length points for a 9 card suit here.

There is a minimum opening requirement that hands must first meet before we apply an LTC formula to it. They typically have at least 13 points or at least 1.5 - 2.0 quick tricks to them.

The hand with 18 HCP and at most 4 losers satisfies both the quick trick and minimum HCP requirement. 1098765432♥ has absolutely no quick tricks and is no where near 13 total points, so you don't use the LTC tool since this hand does not even meet the minimum opening requirements.

[johnu]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-18, 10:46, said:

As such he has a royal hand and must sound the trumpets. roll out the carpet, and open up 2 ♣ to put his partner on official notice that he has a potential barn burner that warrants an game ending contract.

West has 10 points and a well defined club suit....his spade suit is not strong enough for a mention yet since it is not headed by KJXX. West must respond 3♣and east bids 3nt final.

I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". Does that mean East flashes the 3NT bidding card and then immediately scoops up the bidding cards and starts to put them back in the bidding box? Or emphatically places the 3NT card on the table, crosses his arms, and glares at partner, just daring him to bid again?

[spotlight7]

The K & R site tends to give a numberic value that does not always meet reasonable bridge standards.


The responding hand with 5S and 6C is rated 13.45 so I cannot understand stopping below slam after 2C-3C


2C-3C-3NT - pass is result bridge almost in its ultimate form.


Partner opened 2C and I hold a K&R 13.45 hand so I pass after 2C-3C-3N?


I tried some other examples on the K&R site:


xx xx x AKxxxxxx is 15.2 Two quick tricks so open 1C and rebid 2Cs


x xx xx AKJxxxxx 16.5 2+ quick tricks open 1C and jump rebid 3C


x xx x AQ10xxxxx rated 15 with 1.5 quick tricks. Not quite worth a jump with 15 'this time.'


x x x AQ10xxxxxxx 16.75 with 1.5 quick tricks.


The example hand shown on the site is KQxxx QJ10x - AK10x rates 18.8 and it has 3 quick tricks.


Is it worth a jump shift after partner replies? It is a 4 loser hand.


If you find a fit, it is a very nice hand.



Kaplan would not even come close to opening 2C with the example hand.


The 8.5 trick hand that you mention for a 2C opening is taking a charitable view 'when holding a major suit.'



A Kaplan 2C opening followed by a minor suit rebid would have a likely 10+ winners.


In his KS system, 1 minor -1 something - a jump rebid of the minor 'shows a hand worth a 2C opening if the suit was a major.


1D - something - 2C* or 1C - something - 2D* is KS bidding defined as a KS 'reverse.'


A hand worth 1m - something - 3 minor rebid in standard metods uses a KS reverse to show that hand type.



2C-2D-3N using Kokish style bidding tends to show a strong(solid?) suit without a great HCP holding.


A hand with high hopes of running 9+ winners on the opening lead.

[sfi]

spotlight7, on 2017-April-19, 18:50, said:

The K & R site tends to give a numberic value that does not always meet reasonable bridge standards.

Indeed. It is almost like the game is not entirely defined by simplistic numerical evaluation methods.

[Nabooba]

"I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". "
There is none. IF East opened 2C, then surely west would not pass 3NT, after all, this or similar is a possible layout:

AKxx
Axxx
AKQx
x
Now where do you want to be? Passing 3NT is resulting.

[RedSpawn]

johnu, on 2017-April-19, 18:07, said:

I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". Does that mean East flashes the 3NT bidding card and then immediately scoops up the bidding cards and starts to put them back in the bidding box? Or emphatically places the 3NT card on the table, crosses his arms, and glares at partner, just daring him to bid again?

Are you going to even acknowledge that you were out of order for accusing me of not recognizing South's 2♥ preemptive bid when you failed to read the qualification from the original poster that clearly states to assume all players pass to East?

NOPE! You won't do that because there is a bigger principle at play here. Your ego won't even allow you to make such a concession.

If you are going to get snarky and suggest I am a bridge fool or shortsighted, you should first make sure you have read the entire string and have your facts right about the auction conditions.

You hastily threw a poisoned dart and got busted for failing to read the original poster's underlying assumptions. There is no 2♥ bid from South if everyone passes to East.

[RedSpawn]

sfi, on 2017-April-19, 19:05, said:

Indeed. It is almost like the game is not entirely defined by simplistic numerical evaluation methods.

Couldn't agree more.

AQTX♦
AQTXX♦
AQTXXX♦
AQTXXXX♦

can't all be worth just 6 points per Milton's evaluation. Whether NT or suit contract, the hands with longer diamond suits are more valuable from a trick taking potential perspective. That is why East's hand is not just a random 18 point hand.

Some type of adjustment is needed to reflect the asset value of a long honor-rich suit. If you think having three extra cards beyond the basic four in diamond suit is not equivalent to having perhaps, an extra king in hand....so be it.

What value do you assign to the extra 3 cards in the decently established ♦ suit, 0?

I will not suggest that absolutely no adjustment is needed as that is patently understating my hand's asset value.

[sfi]

RedSpawn, on 2017-April-20, 01:18, said:

What value do you assign for the extra 3 cards in the decently established diamond suit, 0?

Yes, since you ask. They certainly improve the hand significantly, but I don't bother turning that into a number. That doesn't matter since I don't use a set number for a 2C opener. Call it 'game in hand' or thereabouts, and one where the auction will be able to proceed sensibly after 2C.

This hand doesn't have the fillers that screams 'open 2C' and it's a rare construction where we won't be better off on the next round after a 1D opening. If we get passed out in 1D I'm not going to be all that stressed either, since we probably aren't making game.

Besides, if you open 2C on this hand you are going to be lucky to stop short of slam on the actual deal. That's not going to go well.

[Cyberyeti]

sfi, on 2017-April-20, 01:35, said:

Yes, since you ask. They certainly improve the hand significantly, but I don't bother turning that into a number. That doesn't matter since I don't use a set number for a 2C opener. Call it 'game in hand' or thereabouts, and one where the auction will be able to proceed sensibly after 2C.

This hand doesn't have the fillers that screams 'open 2C' and it's a rare construction where we won't be better off on the next round after a 1D opening. If we get passed out in 1D I'm not going to be all that stressed either, since we probably aren't making game.

Besides, if you open 2C on this hand you are going to be lucky to stop short of slam on the actual deal. That's not going to go well.

Exactly, head the diamonds with AQJ10 and I have no issues opening 2♣, possibly a bad result on this hand but you have the playing strength to back it up.

[RedSpawn]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-April-20, 02:39, said:

Exactly, head the diamonds with AQJ10 and I have no issues opening 2♣, possibly a bad result on this hand but you have the playing strength to back it up.

You do not need 4 of 5 ♦ honors to pad a decently established 7 card suit....to be 2 clubs eligible. I agree having 4 of 5 honors is nice, but that is a bit of overkill.

I think we are putting a 2 clubs open on too high a pedastal especially with the modern shift of "less HCP is more" bidding of 1 of a suit bids we are trending towards even from first and second seat.

[nige1]

drewolson, on 2017-April-16, 20:31, said:

Partner and I picked up these hands at a club game this weekend. I was sitting W. We had a bad bidding miscommunication, but even after the game looking at the diagrams, I'm unsure how these hands should have been bid. How would you bid them?

drewolson, on 2017-April-17, 05:11, said:

Thanks for the comments so far. For the sake of discussion, assume it is passed around to E (it was on our hand, I didn't want to open as W). Without intervention, what would be your "ideal" sequence?

We're told there are 3 passes to East. Assuming EW have relevant agreements and NS grant them an uninterrupted auction;
Although East has 4 losers, he can risk 1♦ because it's likely to be a reasonable contract, unlikely to be passed out, and West will require some cards to make game.
After West's 1♠, East reverses into 2♥ (with the understanding that such bids are never raised to game).
West rebids 3♣ showing sound values (Without South's double, 2N would have been Lebensohl).
Over 3♠, West has a choice between 3N and 4♠. On a ♥ lead, If declarer cashes ♦A, then 3N is a lucky make (4 X ♠, 2 X ♥, 2 X ♦ and 1 X ♣).

---

[sfi]

I was with you for a while. I agree the auction should start:

1D - 1S
2H - 3C

There we diverge. I would continue:

3D - 3S
4S

However, nothing feels all that comfortable. West's black suit length doesn't really get shown - 3S suggests 6 of them more often than not - and East's last call is definitely not clear.

On the bright side, the defence (in either 3NT or 4S) isn't going to be all that obvious either. It's a messy hand that is likely to lead to lots of post mortems around the room.