[virgosrock]

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OR
http://tinyurl.com/y829tu5k since too many plusses to replace with blanks. On Firefox anyways. Will try Chrome next time

I blurbed jump to 4C. Weird explanation with 3+ d etc.
Rule should be the doubler MUST bid once more. Similar to non-forcing 2/1 where responder showed 10+ hcp and guaranteed another bid.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

The double here is a penalty double. It's very weird to require a doubler to bid once more, whether the doubler is negative or penalty, I disagree with your suggestion strongly. There are shapely weaker hands where conceivably opener would want to bid 3c and be able to play there, not have to play 4c or defend 2S. Normally opener is required to cue bid to create a force. Jump shift by opener on this auction to 4c, it's reasonable to define it as forcing also.

The biggest problem on these auctions is GIB can't penalty double the runout from the Michaels cue despite the initial penalty double, that needs to be fixed. That would obtain at least +500 on best defense.
Smaller problem is I think East should always prefer 2H with equal length in majors, because 45xx is an occasional Michaels tactic employed by some people, and 56xx a more frequent one.

6c is hardly cold BTW, E/W can obtain a diamond ruff. 6D on a different layout might go down on club ruff also, on a more std Michaels bid, if LHO 5521.

[zhasbeen]

A timely post for me as I'm trying to learn michaels and Unusual NT defenses. I'm trying to memorize them before a game I have next week that I'm a little nervous about. This is one of the easiest, since double of michaels or unusual NT cue bids are always for penalty. You don't have to stop and think if it is upper, lower, 4th suit etc. This one and direct raise of suit partner opened are easiest.

Anyway, I think it's a must today, since there is more interference bidding than ever. I wouldn't have known what to do month ago and am still far from confident that I've got it all.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-01, 10:48, said:

The double here is a penalty double. It's very weird to require a doubler to bid once more, whether the doubler is negative or penalty, I disagree with your suggestion strongly. There are shapely weaker hands where conceivably opener would want to bid 3c and be able to play there, not have to play 4c or defend 2S. Normally opener is required to cue bid to create a force. Jump shift by opener on this auction to 4c, it's reasonable to define it as forcing also.

The biggest problem on these auctions is GIB can't penalty double the runout from the Michaels cue despite the initial penalty double, that needs to be fixed. That would obtain at least +500 on best defense.
Smaller problem is I think East should always prefer 2H with equal length in majors, because 45xx is an occasional Michaels tactic employed by some people, and 56xx a more frequent one.

6c is hardly cold BTW, E/W can obtain a diamond ruff. 6D on a different layout might go down on club ruff also, on a more std Michaels bid, if LHO 5521.

1. "The double is a penalty double". Yes I was aware and blurb confirmed same. Historically the hands that GIBBO doubles on, in my experience, is quite wide. In some cases they have made the doubled contract or gone for a small penalty. Looking back I could have cue bid 3h which on the face of it seems weird. I tried 4c which was something ridiculous like 3+ d and rebiddable clubs, and the usual 11-21. Plus severe complications when one starts with a D and then bids Clubs. GIBBO makes weird assumptions about lengths after that. Generally assumes clubs MUCH longer. PLUS passing with this 2056 shape is a recipe for GIBBO disaster. It will pass.
2. "6C is hardly cold". Yes anything could happen. But that does not prevent us from bidding them.
3. I am concerned about the impatient tone in your reply. We are dealing with a machine that bids on Rules. These Rules are necessary but clearly not sufficient. Long ways to go.

vrock

[virgosrock]

zhasbeen, on 2017-November-01, 12:16, said:

A timely post for me as I'm trying to learn michaels and Unusual NT defenses. I'm trying to memorize them before a game I have next week that I'm a little nervous about. This is one of the easiest, since double of michaels or unusual NT cue bids are always for penalty. You don't have to stop and think if it is upper, lower, 4th suit etc. This one and direct raise of suit partner opened are easiest.

Anyway, I think it's a must today, since there is more interference bidding than ever. I wouldn't have known what to do month ago and am still far from confident that I've got it all.

zhasbeen be careful about these penalty doubles by GIBBO.

vrock

[zhasbeen]

virgosrock, on 2017-November-01, 13:06, said:

zhasbeen be careful about these penalty doubles by GIBBO.

vrock

Man, are you ever right about that. It's the reopening double that I've been burned on a few times. I'm very careful about those, but GIB seems to be o.k. with the michaels. I'm 1 for 2 the last two times I took a chance and reopening--one top and one bottom.

I'm thinking that it might be because michaels defense is part of system, while reopening doubles are judgement calls. As you said, "who knows?"

[Stephen Tu]

virgosrock, on 2017-November-01, 13:05, said:

2. "6C is hardly cold". Yes anything could happen. But that does not prevent us from bidding them.
3. I am concerned about the impatient tone in your reply. We are dealing with a machine that bids on Rules. These Rules are necessary but clearly not sufficient. Long ways to go.

What exactly is your concern about my tone? I merely:
- pointed out that you called 6c "cold" when it is not
- disagreed with your rule suggestion that double should promise a rebid, which to me is a very non-std treatment

I agree 3c/4c need better definitions/rules. But not your suggestion that 3c should be forcing.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-01, 15:16, said:

What exactly is your concern about my tone? I merely:
- pointed out that you called 6c "cold" when it is not
- disagreed with your rule suggestion that double should promise a rebid, which to me is a very non-std treatment

I agree 3c/4c need better definitions/rules. But not your suggestion that 3c should be forcing.

ok wrong use of "cold". sorry.
What is the "std" treatment in such cases? Partner did not pass 2S hence has something to say. System has essentially restricted partner from 4C jump. 3H is only possibility. Jumping to 5C who knows with GIBBO who is likely to pass as it does most of the time.

vrock

[virgosrock]

zhasbeen, on 2017-November-01, 14:32, said:

Man, are you ever right about that. It's the reopening double that I've been burned on a few times. I'm very careful about those, but GIB seems to be o.k. with the michaels. I'm 1 for 2 the last two times I took a chance and reopening--one top and one bottom.

I'm thinking that it might be because michaels defense is part of system, while reopening doubles are judgement calls. As you said, "who knows?"

Top players have a systems book which they are required to provide to opponents which could be 60-100 pages. We don't have that luxury.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

virgosrock, on 2017-November-01, 17:31, said:

ok wrong use of "cold". sorry.
What is the "std" treatment in such cases? Partner did not pass 2S hence has something to say. System has essentially restricted partner from 4C jump. 3H is only possibility. Jumping to 5C who knows with GIBBO who is likely to pass as it does most of the time.

,
The standard treatment is for 4c and 5c to have better definitions and for partner to follow up sensibly, taking preference to diamonds with equal length, raising to appropriate level depending on simulating appropriate hands, and given sensible HCP /distribution ranges for 4c/5c.

I'm perfectly on board with fixing those. Changing it to 3c forcing because double promises a rebid, I am not.

I don't know that there even is a std for how strong 4c is and whether it is forcing or not. It's a rare auction. I don't remember ever really discussing it with anyone. Partner has shown misfit for you, length/strength in the opponent's suits, and is expecting most of the time to simply pound them. So most of the time it's going to be better to double them then bid on. Here, 6d happens to make, but only because both partner comes up with exactly the right filler cards (ace of spades rather than ace of hearts, q of clubs rather than another card in the majors, DK), AND LHO happens to be offshape Michaels. Missing these high cards and not big fit from partner, you need Michaels bidder to be like 5512/5530/5521 with stiff CA, with 5521/5503 usually going to be in trouble.

So I don't know that's it right to bid on even with the 6-5. You get 500 here. If partner had more in majors you might get even more AND your minor game/slam doesn't make.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-November-01, 19:07, said:

,
The standard treatment is for 4c and 5c to have better definitions and for partner to follow up sensibly, taking preference to diamonds with equal length, raising to appropriate level depending on simulating appropriate hands, and given sensible HCP /distribution ranges for 4c/5c.

I'm perfectly on board with fixing those. Changing it to 3c forcing because double promises a rebid, I am not.

I don't know that there even is a std for how strong 4c is and whether it is forcing or not. It's a rare auction. I don't remember ever really discussing it with anyone. Partner has shown misfit for you, length/strength in the opponent's suits, and is expecting most of the time to simply pound them. So most of the time it's going to be better to double them then bid on. Here, 6d happens to make, but only because both partner comes up with exactly the right filler cards (ace of spades rather than ace of hearts, q of clubs rather than another card in the majors, DK), AND LHO happens to be offshape Michaels. Missing these high cards and not big fit from partner, you need Michaels bidder to be like 5512/5530/5521 with stiff CA, with 5521/5503 usually going to be in trouble.

So I don't know that's it right to bid on even with the 6-5. You get 500 here. If partner had more in majors you might get even more AND your minor game/slam doesn't make.

methinks GIBBO would as well double with 10 HCP and 3433 - has done it in my experience. I concluded therefore it is more about the 10 HCP than penalty with cards in opps suit. So an out is needed for GIBBOs pard. methinks the fix is 4C is 5+C 5+D and whatever points but is stronger than 3C. Or that weird 3H cuebid. Yes, in this case we might get a hefty penalty and not risk going overboard. I'd love to hear experts on this.

vrock