[broze]

It's also not as simple as "the EU wants our fish", although of course this is the line taken by the pro-Brexit papers. It's a two-way thing. The UK wants something from the EU as well which is the right to sell British fish in Europe - this is why it's called a negotiation. If Britain didn't want to negotiate on these matters, we should never have left.

Look, Brexiteers have won. Remainers lost. Enjoy your moment! But DON'T complain when the EU are simply trying to protect their interests. Honestly, what did you think was going to happen?

[hrothgar]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 15:25, said:

I see it more like abandoning a spouse because we've discovered they're having an affair (with a federal Europe)

Isn't the EU "federal Europe"...

My guess is what you are actually saying is that you want to trade with the Germans but not those nasty Southern Europeans or, god forbid the Poles but it's hard to be sure.

[Winstonm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-03, 15:25, said:

I see it more like abandoning a spouse because we've discovered they're having an affair (with a federal Europe)

That is exactly what I said. You left for cause, for a reason. Now, though, that cause doesn't matter. It is moot. It is time to deal with the consequences of the decision to leave and understand that neither party owes the other anything.

[broze]

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-03, 15:49, said:

My guess is what you are actually saying is that you want to trade with the Germans but not those nasty Southern Europeans or, god forbid the Poles but it's hard to be sure.

I don't really think this attitude helps discussions honestly.

[Cyberyeti]

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-03, 15:49, said:

Isn't the EU "federal Europe"...

My guess is what you are actually saying is that you want to trade with the Germans but not those nasty Southern Europeans or, god forbid the Poles but it's hard to be sure.

When we joined, it was the European ECONOMIC Community, the political union most Brits have never wanted any part of and it's been drifting ever closer.

And no it's nothing to to do with TRADING with the Southern Europeans.

[fromageGB]

I am very happy for the EU to defend its position, and try to get as much benefit as they can. Boze is right on this. I am delighted the UK (shortly to be GB I feel) feels the same way and fights to get what we can. In 10 months we will be free, and we can make our own way. Certainly I would not give away our fishing rights as a precondition to negotiations, but the tactic the EU used last time with May in charge was the same : "everything must be done our way" and it worked then. You can't expect then to change spots. What we can do (I hope) is to refuse to accept it this time.

And if the EU sticks huge tarrifs on importing UK fish I really do hope we do not do the same with French wine and cheese ...

[Zelandakh]

 fromageGB, on 2020-March-04, 05:55, said:

I am delighted the UK (shortly to be GB I feel)

Do you have some insider information that NI might be planning to leave the UK?

[hrothgar]

 fromageGB, on 2020-March-04, 05:55, said:

I am delighted the UK (shortly to be GB I feel) feels the same way and fights to get what we can.

England dude...

You're going to be stuck living in England.
If you're lucky, you won't lose London as well.

[Cyberyeti]

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-04, 07:00, said:

England dude...

You're going to be stuck living in England.
If you're lucky, you won't lose London as well.

Wales voted to leave also

[shyams]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-March-04, 08:11, said:

Wales voted to leave also

Wales does not feature on the flag of the UK (it is technically a principality of England)! Just saying :):)

[Cyberyeti]

 shyams, on 2020-March-04, 15:07, said:

Wales does not feature on the flag of the UK (it is technically a principality of England)! Just saying :):)

Tell that to any Welshman

It has its own parliament so it seems to be a country

[cherdano]

Given the ridiculous importance of fishing rights in the UK discourse the smart play by the EU would be to pretend to be care a lot and be tough about fishing rights until the very last minute, and then shortly before the deadline to grudgingly "give in" on this all-important topic, in exchange for concession on "less important" matters elsewhere...

[Zelandakh]

 shyams, on 2020-March-04, 15:07, said:

Wales does not feature on the flag of the UK (it is technically a principality of England)! Just saying :):)

Perhaps in London children are taught differently but down my way we learn that the red X part of the Union Jack comes from the cross of St David.

[thepossum]

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-03, 07:51, said:

I have never understood Brexit.

Probably in the same way and for the same reasons many around the world and the USA (including me for quite a while) did not understand the election of President Trump, or the reason why Bernie Sanders probably would never be a threat to Trump, or here in Australia why there was such an unexpected (by some) election result

I (as ex-UK) was one of many who despaired (for a while) over the Breixt vote but feel I had a small understanding due to my knowledge of the divides and anger around the place

There is no single England, so single UK. There was a flawed process but what happened, from my understanding simply represented the mess and divisions throughout a complex economy and population which can never be adequately represented by a simple majority in Westminster (even class, wealth, privilege, attitudes to Brexit crossed party lines), or a single vote on an issue to attempt to represent the UK. A bit like the error of using a population averaged/mean model to make decisions on each individual or group in a society

Just look at the last general election in the UK where very traditional working class/Labour areas voted Conservative and much of Labour's (eg social democratic/socialist) support comes from privileged inner cities

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-03, 07:51, said:

I think that England just shot itself in the head.

See above for my views on flawed process and lack of understanding by many in the politicial establishment over the state of the UK and its diversity of countries, cultures, and socio-economic divides. There is no one England or UK. The process, however you look at it was rather inadequate to deal with those complexities

 hrothgar, on 2020-March-03, 07:51, said:

I hope that the Scots are able to salvage something for themselves.

Also N Ireland. However they too are rather divided. For example the Scots had opportunity years ago to vote for independence within the EU but voted to stay attacked to Westminster. N Ireland similarly has very complex issues based on very old historical and current economic and social divides



I feel the whole world seems to be in something of a mess which current political processes and organisations seem rather incacpable of getting a grip of. Left/right has totally changed. All the old traditional divisions have changed through globablisation, changes in industry/technology and other factors/changes/social revolutions impacting old power bases. I wonder if our approach to democracy can deal with those divides or not. You/one hopes that the principle of Westminster (and other variants) of democracy works despite the break down in the old divides but only time will tell. At least one side of politics around the world is still struggling to come to terms with it.

I wasnt trained in all this kind of thing (I understand maths and science better )but over recent years I have become a total cynic about everything political and feel nothing really matters whichever side you are. The world will progress or (most likely) not irrespective of anything else

[fromageGB]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-March-04, 06:18, said:

Do you have some insider information that NI might be planning to leave the UK?

Not at all, but (a) the current agreement gives them the right to vote to unite with Eire, (b) Sinn Fein is a growing political movement in the south that wants unity, ( c) the UK practically insists on apartheid or segregation based on religion in the north, rather than integration : almost half of schoolchildren are taught in schools where more than 95% are of the same religion; 90% of public housing is segregated, (d) catholics breed faster, and while in the 2011 census the catholic/protestant ratio was 45/48, it is set to exceed unity in the next couple of years, I read.

Given all this, and the impression I had speaking to people while over there, I see it as not inevitable, but likely. If the EU imposes border crossing checks, it will probably hasten the decision.

[Zelandakh]

 fromageGB, on 2020-March-05, 07:42, said:

Given all this, and the impression I had speaking to people while over there, I see it as not inevitable, but likely. If the EU imposes border crossing checks, it will probably hasten the decision.

Then why did you write "shortly to be GB I feel", which gives a much stronger impression? Besides which, have you ever spoken with a unionist? I think it is fair to say that nothing whatsoever could hasten the process from their point of view. What will most likely make the difference is more a matter of demographics. Catholics just need to make enough babies that they can win a vote directly. This process almost certainly is inevitable but not to be blamed on Brexit!

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-March-05, 08:05, said:

Then why did you write "shortly to be GB I feel", which gives a much stronger impression? Besides which, have you ever spoken with a unionist? I think it is fair to say that nothing whatsoever could hasten the process from their point of view. What will most likely make the difference is more a matter of demographics. Catholics just need to make enough babies that they can win a vote directly. This process almost certainly is inevitable but not to be blamed on Brexit!

There is some evidence that the 100% protestant to unionist mapping is breaking down, and that a small but growing number of Protestants would prefer to be in Europe, and if that means a united Ireland to achieve that, then so be it.

[Winstonm]

 thepossum, on 2020-March-05, 03:39, said:

Probably in the same way and for the same reasons many around the world and the USA (including me for quite a while) did not understand the election of President Trump, or the reason why Bernie Sanders probably would never be a threat to Trump, or here in Australia why there was such an unexpected (by some) election result

I (as ex-UK) was one of many who despaired (for a while) over the Breixt vote but feel I had a small understanding due to my knowledge of the divides and anger around the place

There is no single England, so single UK. There was a flawed process but what happened, from my understanding simply represented the mess and divisions throughout a complex economy and population which can never be adequately represented by a simple majority in Westminster (even class, wealth, privilege, attitudes to Brexit crossed party lines), or a single vote on an issue to attempt to represent the UK. A bit like the error of using a population averaged/mean model to make decisions on each individual or group in a society

Just look at the last general election in the UK where very traditional working class/Labour areas voted Conservative and much of Labour's (eg social democratic/socialist) support comes from privileged inner cities



See above for my views on flawed process and lack of understanding by many in the politicial establishment over the state of the UK and its diversity of countries, cultures, and socio-economic divides. There is no one England or UK. The process, however you look at it was rather inadequate to deal with those complexities



Also N Ireland. However they too are rather divided. For example the Scots had opportunity years ago to vote for independence within the EU but voted to stay attacked to Westminster. N Ireland similarly has very complex issues based on very old historical and current economic and social divides



I feel the whole world seems to be in something of a mess which current political processes and organisations seem rather incacpable of getting a grip of. Left/right has totally changed. All the old traditional divisions have changed through globablisation, changes in industry/technology and other factors/changes/social revolutions impacting old power bases. I wonder if our approach to democracy can deal with those divides or not. You/one hopes that the principle of Westminster (and other variants) of democracy works despite the break down in the old divides but only time will tell. At least one side of politics around the world is still struggling to come to terms with it.

I wasnt trained in all this kind of thing (I understand maths and science better )but over recent years I have become a total cynic about everything political and feel nothing really matters whichever side you are. The world will progress or (most likely) not irrespective of anything else

There is no magical "go back to good times" button in life, as what came before is only better in the imaginations and fantasies of believers. Life is a struggle for progress, and it works best when we all admit we are interconnected and dependent upon each other. This modern iteration of populism is nothing more than an appeal to base instincts and immature emotions and its purpose is to divide, to make everyone lesser, not better. The question to ask is: who would benefit the most from this?

[shyams]

Let's resurrect this thread in light of new developments in the UK-EU negotiations. This time the UK Govt. seems to have planned for a full-fledged brinkmanship ritual so this could go in the direction of a messy exit.In response, the markets have already begun to mete out a "punishment":

              01 Sep     10 Sep
   GBP/USD    1.338       1.285     down 4.0%
   GBP/EUR    1.124       1.083     down 3.5%

[Cyberyeti]

I think Johnson's in a really difficult place. There's a feeling that May never wanted to leave the EU in the first place so basically gave up everything she could to the EU as early as possible to get as bad a deal as she could to try to scupper Brexit. Boris is left with the wreckage.

EU state aid rules to apply to NI and the EU to have ANY rights to UK fishing waters are red lines and going to be very difficult from here because NI is basically not viable with the trade barriers down the Irish sea without considerable state aid.