[Tramticket]

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When you pre-empt, you make one bid, then leave things to partner. But rules are there for our guidance - are you tempted to make a second bid with 7-5?

What is your strategy at MP pairs (non-vulnerable Vs. vulerable opps)? Are you planning to open 3♥ or 4♥? (or pass? or 1♥ or...?).

Will you bid diamonds if the bidding comes back to you at a convenient level? If you open 3♥/4♥:

Spoiler

If you open 3♥:

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If you open 4:

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Do you bid diamonds?

[BillPatch]

Going high. 4♥ then 5♦. Seven five, come alive.

[pescetom]

At this vulnerability 4♥ then 5♦.
Otherwise just the first bid then pass.

[FelicityR]

BillPatch, on 2020-March-09, 02:45, said:

Going high. 4♥ then 5♦. Seven five, come alive.

I think you're find that the expression is '6-5 come alive' (My apologies for being pedantic.) But that doesn't mean that with any 6-5 or for that matter 7-5 hand you should enter the auction twice. Suit quality and vulnerability must always be taken into consideration.

Also, entering an auction twice after a initial pre-empt can be awkward if the shorter suit is higher ranking as delayed preference for the first suit has to be given one level higher.

[eagles123]

4H then pass

[Trinidad]

The reason why you preempt is to make life hard on the opponents. You turn the auction into a guessing competition, rather than something scientific. It is important to make sure that the opponents make the last guess.

Whatever action they take after your initial action will be a guess. Nobody can say anything sensible about whether they guessed right: Game may go down or slam may be cold. Do not give them a chance to improve their guess.

So, chose your preemptive action, whether it is 2♥ or 5♥, or anything in between, and after that stay out of the mess you have created. Just hope that they guessed wrong and accept that they will guess right some of the time.

Rik

[mikeh]

I would open 4H.

Then I pass should the opps come in.

Bidding 5D, over 4S, is an insult to the opps. Do you think that they won't know what you hold when you bid this way?

Remember that partner did not raise hearts, or if it went, say, (x) P (4S), he can still compete to 5H should he wish to do so (though he will rarely wish to do so)

Therefore, for 5D to be 'right', you almost surely need partner to have long diamonds and little defence.

Meanwhile, you have given the opps a second chance. When RHO bids, say, 4S, he was under pressure. That comes in several forms: one is he has a weakish hand with borderline trump and partner has good defence. You risk turning a plus into a minus.

Another risk is that one or both of the opps has extra values, but not enough to risk going beyond 4S. Say it goes 5D (P) P (5S): that may let LHO bump to slam, since his vulnerable partner won't be saving with his 5SD bid. Note that the risks of this depend to some degree on whether LHO's pass of 5D is forcing, which I think it ought to be: after all LHO had to be prepared for a 5D call by his partner.

Thirdly, any red suit at the 5-level may be a complete disaster: picture partner with 5=1=2=5 or worse

And lastly, how tough will it be for the opps to play the hand should they declare? This is something a lot of players ignore when they preempt, and preempting twice here is about the same as showing declarer your hand

[nullve]

4♥, then X (= "action", or too much shape to pass, not enough shape to bid). Partner will then try to apply LoTT, of course.

[mikeh]

nullve, on 2020-March-09, 14:27, said:

4♥, then X (= "action", or too much shape to pass, not enough shape to bid). Partner will then try to apply LoTT, of course.

That’s an unusual agreement. Most would play, I think, that 4H then double showed a good hand, where one bid 4H to make, rather than as a preeempt. Plus how the heck does partner know what to do? Usually you’ve offered him a choice between -790/990 or - 800/1100. Neither are viable long term ideas

[helene_t]

nullve, on 2020-March-09, 14:27, said:

4♥, then X (= "action", or too much shape to pass, not enough shape to bid). Partner will then try to apply LoTT, of course.

Seem wrong to me. You have at best one defensive trick against 4♠. If partner wants to defend doubled, he could double himself. Double, if it exists at all, should show that we have substantially better defense than partner expects from a 4♥ opening. And better offense, too. It should show that the board is likely to belong to us and that opps almost certainly haven't missed slam.

I don't think I would ever make an action double as preemptor opposite an unpassed hand, but maybe 1st seat favourable at IMPs if I am desperate.

[Tramticket]

Thanks all. I would have opened 4♥ and passed thereafter. Partner held the hand and planned to make two bids and opened 3♥, following up with 4♦. Sadly, I was equally to blame when I pushed on to 5♦ over the opponents' 4♠. -300 would be ok if the opponents were making 4♠, but it shouldn't make against best defence and in practice it failed more often than it succeeded.

[P_Marlowe]

Tramticket, on 2020-March-10, 01:56, said:

Thanks all. I would have opened 4♥ and passed thereafter. Partner held the hand and planned to make two bids and opened 3♥, following up with 4♦.
<snip>

I have no idea, what I would have done, …, but if I bid 3H, I will only bid again, if they bid 4S.
If they find 4S over 3H, it is quite likely they can make 4S, in contrast, if they bid 4S over 4H,
they guess.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2020-March-09, 18:01, said:

Most would play, I think, that 4H then double showed a good hand, where one bid 4H to make, rather than as a preeempt.

In 1st seat? ("[H]ow the heck does partner know what to do?".) Sorry, I assumed 4♥ practically denied opening values.

mikeh, on 2020-March-09, 18:01, said:

Plus how the heck does partner know what to do?

He will expect a total trick more than if I pass, and act accordingly. Whether it's right of me to double with this particular hand, is another matter.

mikeh, on 2020-March-09, 18:01, said:

Usually you’ve offered him a choice between -790/990 or - 800/1100.

Do you really expect only 17 total tricks on this hand?

[mikeh]

nullve, on 2020-March-10, 14:21, said:

In 1st seat? ("[H]ow the heck does partner know what to do?".) Sorry, I assumed 4♥ practically denied opening values.


He will expect a total trick more than if I pass, and act accordingly. Whether it's right of me to double with this particular hand, is another matter.


Do you really expect only 17 total tricks on this hand?

I must have missed that part of the auction that said that either side had a 9 card fit. Silly me. Not to mention that the LOTT is hardly infallible

[msjennifer]

Sirs,The way we play a 4H opening is not possible on this hand since it fails the 123 rule.But certainly 3H is a possible bid and then keep quiet unless we realise that its our hand with opponents either quiet or make some feeble sounding bids.

[pescetom]

msjennifer, on 2020-March-11, 10:50, said:

Sirs,The way we play a 4H opening is not possible on this hand since it fails the 123 rule.

It passes the 234 rule which is what we play (4 for favourable vulnerability plus a slightly optimistic guesstimate of 6 tricks).
Is your rule the same but needing one trick more?

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2020-March-10, 18:26, said:

I must have missed that part of the auction that said that either side had a 9 card fit.

I'm not sure what this is in response to.I hope you're not suggesting that only because my action double could conceivably lead to disaster (as in your not impossible 17 total tricks scenario), then it must be wrong. You often call other people out when they make inferences of that type.

mikeh, on 2020-March-10, 18:26, said:

Not to mention that the LOTT is hardly infallible

I don't know anyone who thinks it is. But if you know of something better than LoTT (that is, LoTT + "adjustments", even in books aimed at intermediates), perhaps you can tell us what it is? Something reducible to LoTT + better adjustments, perhaps? I'm all for it!