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Global democracy, media maniuplatio etc Do we have it - moved thread by author

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-April-24, 00:21

Hi all

Posted this on the Trump rant thread but since it covers much broader issues of politics, media, democracy and manipulation throughout history, it was regarded as irrelevant, so I am starting it as a new thread

Please bear with me. I will edit it down when I'm less tired of trying to express my feelings about the ridiculous media manipulation related to what we are fed through media about Whitehouse briefings during a global crisis

regards P

PS Sorry for being boring and rambling but I just felt like expressing my feelings about social media, media and apparent advice on injecting disinfectant; and also my thoughts on why Dr Birx is expected to be wasting her time doing studies on injection of disinfectant and shining UV light on viruses. Some of us are concerned


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Long rambing version - here util it is edited

Hi all

I need to ask something or at least raise something of concern, and it relates to this (it did before moving) thread and others for obvious reasons. I don't expect anyone will necessarily respond. I dont even know if I can express it very well. However what my concern relates to, as a non-USA citizen/resident, but whose life, along with the rest of the world is largely dominated/impacted by geopolitics of empires, whose media is totally dominated by the apparent shenanigans in the WHitehouse - both broadcast or written in MSM and social media.

I could take the regular position which is to look at an (often out of context) media clip beinng (ab)used by various media voices to attack every liberal's favourite target. I could look at the clips and also think how ridiculous it is, how could anyone say that in that way, let alone a president of the USA. I could also question - is that really what was said. What was the context. I could if available and I have time watch a whole briefing from beginning to end without edits or commentary - I managed to find one a few days ago of a complete briefing by the Doctors Birx, Fauci and Redfield; President, Vice President, etc etc. A very good conference - but how often do you see that

But I'm not going to. I'm a bit fed up with the theatre or the circus to be honest. At a time of such crisis.

So I look for some deeper meanings in what is going on, or try to think of everything at a different level than the apparent ridiculous debate and argument and constant attack at the level most of us in the world are currently being fed.

How real is all this? How contrived is? If it is all contrived manipulative theatre who is responsible. I'm not someone who looks at individuals, betes noires etc. I look at systems or some other framework or model of analysing the world and what is going on.

The systems I am thinking of including government, media, coroorations, even academe and professionals now seem engaged at one level in constantly dealing with this low level of discourse which never gets us anywhere. To me anyway it never gets us anywhere. Its just a chance for all these different interests, sadly even those who should be disinterested to have a platform to express, promote, push their side of an issue, their agenda

Is the world really that contrived. Has it always been such. Is that the only way of having a conversation about (for example) treatments for Covid 19, but more bradly management of a pandemic, a global economic catastrophe etc

What I see is maniuplation. I see a worsening of a maniuplative system/systems that I imagine have played out through human history in different ways. Thos syetms of power and those who are interested or have interests in power. Even if its not manipulation it has the effect of manipulation - its an incessant form of extreme conversation - if you can call is conversation that never gets us anywhere. This in the middle of a crisis.

Those systems and information are now dominated by technology, data, digital platforms and coroprations - a new alternative medium - but a massively powerful and also interested group that has joined the throng of other groups - government, media, academe (I hate to say), professionals (I hope not many)

Meanwhile the majority of the world just reads, watches the rubbish being fed to them, the controlled flow of information, the manipulation and either accepts it or fights it in some futile way - at the same time billions of people around the world continue to be hurt and suffer, more an more every day.

So I hope this rant or ramble makes some sense. I'm not trained in writing. But I don't like what I see

regards P
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#2 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-24, 03:57

View Postthepossum, on 2020-April-24, 00:21, said:


Is the world really that contrived. Has it always been such. Is that the only way of having a conversation about (for example) treatments for Covid 19, but more bradly management of a pandemic, a global economic catastrophe etc



I fear that the answer is "yes"

(I apologize in advance for adopting a fairly US centric framework for discussing what I see happening.)

Right now, the relationship between the media and various interest groups seems particularly fractious. In particular, given the sharp schism between the messages that are promoted by Murdoch dominated media outlets and the more "mainstream" media, we're seeing a lot of stuff playing out in the open. (And, for what its worth, I think the media is being deliberately used to drive political polarization). However, its very difficult for me to look back in time and see some golden age in which the media acted differently. For example, lots of folks will point to the era between the end of the second World War and the late 1980s as a period in which there was a much more healthly dynamic between citizens and the media. Its far from clear to me that this was true.

  • Yes, people had much more faith in various institutions
  • Yes, the narrative that you saw from the media was more unified
  • Yes, there was less polarization


However, this doesn't mean that the media was getting things "right". There are all sorts of examples in which grossly inaccurate and toxic narratives were being foist on the population. It was just done so in a more unified way with a more accepting populace.

If we go back a bit further in history to the days of William Randolf Hearst or even the American Revolution, we see media companies that were incredibly active in politics that were actively working to shape and distort public opinion.

If anything, I think that the fact that people CAN currently get access to relatively complete transcripts, take an unfiltered look at what's going on, and draw their own conclusions is a good thing. This doesn't always happen and I think that it is healthy for a society. (Note, I was just now struck by a bunch of issues that cropped up during the Protestant revolution in Europe involving publishing the Bible in vernacular and whether individuals citizens should have a direct relationship with god or have a priest as an intermediary. While I have never before really thought of this in parallel to currently discussions around media, the dynamic feels much the same)
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-April-25, 16:57

Thankyou for your considered reply Hrothgar
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#4 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2020-April-26, 06:40

We hear someone, maybe an acquaintance, maybe a newscaster, describing an event.
I regard "Do I trust this person?" as far more important than "Do I agree with this person?".
We have to allow that sometimes people mis-remember or mis-speak, so I don't expect perfection, but some people are doing their best to tell it straight, others are not.
So we have to sort out who is trying to get it right, regardless of whether they like it, and who is trying to spin it or simply fake it.
Sometimes we cannot be sure whether the person is faking it or is just naive.


In short form: Perfect should not be expected, but there can be better and there can be worse.. We need to push for better. And we must attempt to judge which is which.
Ken
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-April-26, 07:30

View Postkenberg, on 2020-April-26, 06:40, said:

We hear someone, maybe an acquaintance, maybe a newscaster, describing an event.
I regard "Do I trust this person?" as far more important than "Do I agree with this person?".
We have to allow that sometimes people mis-remember or mis-speak, so I don't expect perfection, but some people are doing their best to tell it straight, others are not.
So we have to sort out who is trying to get it right, regardless of whether they like it, and who is trying to spin it or simply fake it.
Sometimes we cannot be sure whether the person is faking it or is just naive.


In short form: Perfect should not be expected, but there can be better and there can be worse.. We need to push for better. And we must attempt to judge which is which.


So much this.

In the US I think there is more of an issue with broadcast media than there is in the UK, here it tends to be newspapers, websites and blogs that are more of an issue.

Asking the questions:
Who owns/founded this news source and what is their agenda ?
How credible and verifiable is their source ?
Why would they have this info when nobody else does ?

will often sift out some of the rubbish
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#6 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-April-28, 05:14

Dear all

Thankyou for your replies. Its difficult for me to explain my unease. Maybe it comes with age and dare I say wisdom (??). Maybe it has come with a change in media and technology. maybe the world has changed although as I suspect and others also back me up somewhat, I suspect it has not changed much at all. I believe the mechanisms of control are the same they always have been (thats from a non-expert observer of media and history) - the use of information, media, whatever mechanisms were/are available in order to control. The nature of the world is very different in some ways. I fear that the true nature of who is in control and how they use the tools at their disposal is not - they just have different and arguably even more efficient tools of control

Sorry for being such a cynic. However, being reflective I realise to a certain extent I am part of that group (maybe in a minor way) - and very recently (in a historical sense) relatively privileged or lucky - but there are many others who for many thousands or even tens of thousands of years have known how to use various tools of power - across the whole wold, in every empire, in every tradition. And that same group (plus or minus a little variance) has remained the same forever, all over the world. Maybe it is now more obvious to even someone like me

P
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#7 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-June-30, 05:20

Hi all,

Sadly the concerns I expressed in this thread have not dissipated. They may even be worse

Regards P
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#8 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-July-15, 18:26

The latest incident causing so much distrust.

The issue with the Whitehouse and the CDC

When everything has been so politicised and extreme (from both sides sadly). When trusted institutions are so strongly aligned and openly party political. When the media also pays into that. When all conversation is like that.

Who are we to believe and trust. What are we to believe and trust.

Do people not think trust is important. Too many iterests everywehere getting in the way of what is right and honest and in the best interests of the people

Who is behind it all. There are elements in extreme tendencies of many colours who love sowing dicsord and distrust. They all have their agendas. I for one find it frighteing, especially during this global cirsis of so many dimensions. Sadly some of the people or political views I trusted have been shooting themselves in the foot with their own bias and self-interest showing far too much

I don't know if anyone here can give me a balanced analysis of what is going on. I certainly find it hard to get in the media in in conversations about the media anywhere

PS In case anyone wonders about my own politcs and why I have ecbome so concerned. It is the way that political parties and tendencies I used to associate with because they cared about people, equality and injustice jumped on other issues politically and semmingly forgot that fundamental principle of justice. And I mean global justice. All we get fed most of the time here are constant and ridiculous arguments over fist-world problems. Meanwhile billions of the worlds most vulnerable people are losing the meagre livesaving incomes they had. Just one example. In Peru I believe close to 90% of the workforce have lost some or all of their hours etc
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-July-16, 02:28

View Postthepossum, on 2020-July-15, 18:26, said:


PS In case anyone wonders about my own politcs and why I have ecbome so concerned. It is the way that political parties and tendencies I used to associate with because they cared about people, equality and injustice jumped on other issues politically and semmingly forgot that fundamental principle of justice. And I mean global justice. All we get fed most of the time here are constant and ridiculous arguments over fist-world problems. Meanwhile billions of the worlds most vulnerable people are losing the meagre livesaving incomes they had. Just one example. In Peru I believe close to 90% of the workforce have lost some or all of their hours etc


I have an internet gaming acquaintance in Belize. The hospitality sector business he worked in shut. He was not getting paid, his family was not getting fed, no benefits or anything like that.
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#10 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-July-16, 03:49

View Postthepossum, on 2020-July-15, 18:26, said:

The latest incident causing so much distrust.

The issue with the Whitehouse and the CDC

When everything has been so politicised and extreme (from both sides sadly). When trusted institutions are so strongly aligned and openly party political. When the media also pays into that. When all conversation is like that.

Who are we to believe and trust. What are we to believe and trust.

From both sides :lol: :lol: :lol:

The CDC has not not been political in the past. CDC guidance has been accepted and followed by both Republican and Democratic administrations. Until the past 3+ years. Under previous administrations, the CDC would have been the leader of the US coronavirus response.

Under the Manchurian President, the CDC has been strong armed to water down coronavirus mitigation guidelines and has virtually been silenced as part of response team. Just this week, hospitals were required to send COVID-19 data to HHS, bypassing CDC and causing justified concern that the politically driven HHS dept would secretly skew the numbers to make it look like the disastrous numbers are really the best numbers.

Only the Grifter in Chief and his goons do not agree with following CDC guidelines. The Sociopath Liar in Chief has told about 20,000 lies or misleading claims in 3 1/2 years. Who are you supposed to believe and trust? If you don't know by now, you probably won't ever figure it out.
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#11 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-July-17, 21:33

View Postjohnu, on 2020-July-16, 03:49, said:

From both sides :lol: :lol: :lol:



I kind of meant both sides of the politics and media for many years, not specifically the CDC in this issue :)

However I always feel in many such executive vs public service agency "differences" there can sometimes be something of different styles, approaches and treading on toes. But I don't know enough about this issue as I said. Its rather important for some of us (even those of us not in the USA) to have trust in most of the big institutions and agencies :)
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