[helene_t]

I was thinking that a strong 1♣ should deny an unbalanced hand with primarily diamonds (or both minors).

Advantages:
- the natural auction 1♣-1♦-2/3♦ is awkward. Also 4441-shapes and 4♦5♣ can be a bit awkward
- artificial ♦ rebids are nice to have available, for example in cramped auctions where opps haven't shown an anchor suit because they play Suction or some other nonsense

Why it is possible:
- the 1♦ opening can be 11-21 or such, as in standard. There's less advantage of opening light with diamonds than with a major, and partner is less inclined to raise it preemptively
- instead of the 4415 2♦ opening, we can use 2♥, and then play multi 2♦. Then 2♦ can contain the GF hands with diamonds.

What do you think?

[PrecisionL]

Agree. We have for years opened 2♦ with 10-15 and 6♦.

Unfortunately, in ACBLand, we can't use Multi 2♦ usually.

[awm]

It seems like the weak notrump and (41)35 patterns might be a bit problematic since they don’t contain real diamonds. It would be nice to promise at least one of real diamonds or limited strength; otherwise you may have trouble sorting everything out.

[nullve]

Two ideas:

1) (Svorsk Club?)

1st/2nd seat:

P: includes 11-13 BAL
1♣ = Precision minus strong hands with primarily diamonds
1N = 14-16 BAL
others: as in Swedish Club a la Kungsgeten (where 1♦ = 11-21, 4+ D, unBAL)

3rd/4th seat:

P = 0-7, unable to preempt
1♣ = nebulous, includes 8-13 BAL (Swedish T-Walsh over this but with 8-10/11-13 replacing 11-13/17-19 if BAL)
1♦ = strong, possibly excluding some awkward unbalanced hands
1M = 8-15(21?), 5+ M
1N = 14-16 BAL
others: as expected, more or less


2) (Precision with "Kokish" 1♥ opening)

1♣ = Precision minus 17-19 BAL
1♥ = 10-15, 5+ H OR 17-19 BAL
others: as in Precision

1♣-1♦; ?:

1N = "diamonds"
2♦: freed up
others: as in Precision

1♥-?:

Maybe something based on Kaplan Inversion and Zirconia:

P = wants to play in 1♥ rather than 1N opposite 17-19 BAL
1♠: 0-4 S or wants to get out in a non-H partial opposite 17-19 BAL
...1N = 4+ D OR 11-13, 5H3D(32) OR 17-19 BAL
......P: wanted to get out in 1N opposite 17-19 BAL (then probably an ok contract also if Opener is 10-15)
......(...)
...2♣ = 10-15, 5+H4+ C or 11-13, 3523
...2♦ = 10-15, 4+S5+H
...2♥ = 10-15, 6+ H
1N = 5+ S, FG opposite 17-19 BAL
others: could be standard but FG opposite 17-19 BAL

?

[helene_t]

awm, on 2020-June-04, 09:36, said:

It seems like the weak notrump and (41)35 patterns might be a bit problematic since they don’t contain real diamonds. It would be nice to promise at least one of real diamonds or limited strength; otherwise you may have trouble sorting everything out.

Thanks.

Maybe 4135 should only be allowed with 11-15 points so that reverses and jump rebids at least show real diamonds.

Btw I like not having a weak nt in 1d but I realize that's oldfashioned and maybe not worth the price.

Without balanced options you can use the 1nt rebid for something. Not sure what. Csaba and I once played it as 6+diamonds, I think it was one of your ideas. We liked that treatment and maybe it would make sense also in an unlimited 1d system (we played 1d as 10-14 then).

[Trinidad]

A pair from a bridge club in Sweden where I played 20 years ago played a system like that. In the '90s they won the Swedish mixed pairs playing it (Krister Persson-Inga Västeby). If I remember correctly, their 1♦ opening was forcing since apart from the natural 11-21 diamond hands, it had a few odd very strong hand types in it.

Rik

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2020-June-04, 16:20, said:

Without balanced options you can use the 1nt rebid for something. Not sure what. Csaba and I once played it as 6+diamonds

That might still be possible if the 1N rebid contains a balanced option that is stronger than the unbalanced ones.

For example, if

1♣ = Precision minus strong hands with primarily diamonds
1♦ = 11-21, NAT unBAL OR 14-16 BAL
1N = 11-13 BAL
others = Precision, more or less,

then e.g.

1♦-1M; ?:

(...)
1N = a) "10-15, 3-M6+D" OR b) 14-16 BAL, 2-3 M
...P = 4 M only, 1N looks ok opposite b) (then it's probably also ok opposite a))
...2♣ = INV+ relay
...2♦ = to play opposite a), F2M opposite b)
......P = a)
......2M = b)
(...).

[dworkin]

It would improve the 1♣ and 1♦ openings a lot, but a four- or five-point range balanced 1N opening seems too wide. So I would suggest:

1♣ strong without primary diamonds
1♦ five or more diamonds unbalanced or four diamonds and five clubs (11-15 or 11-21?) or 4441 with diamonds
1♥ 11-15 balanced or 4=4=1=4/4=3=1=5/3=4=1=5 (or 3=3=1=6?) (1♠ asks for size and diamond shortness and denies a five-card major, 1N is to play - but opener rebids 2♣ with 4=4=(32), 2♦ with 4=4=1=4/4=3=1=5 and 2♥ with 3=4=1=5 -, 2♣ shows five hearts and 2♦ shows five spades)
1♠ 10-15 with five or more spades
1N 10-15 with six or more hearts or five hearts and a four(or more)-card minor (2♣ relay denying five spades, invitational or better, 2♦ weak or invitational with spades, 2♠ game forcing with spades)
2♣ 11-15 with five or more clubs and a four-card major, without three cards in the other major (unless 6430)
2♦ multi
2♥ Flannery (possibly six-four)
2♠ 10-15 with six or more clubs and no four-card major (you may or may not open 1♥ with some (322)=6 / (33K)=6 / 3=3=1=6)
2N 11-15 4=4=0=5 or a game force with primary diamonds

[mw64ahw]

If you've got the Multi-2♦ in there then its fairly straightforward to add the strong ♦ in too.
After 2♦-2M
2N some balanced hand if you want to use it that way
3♣ 6+♦ no side-suit
3♦ 5♦ & side suit
3♥ 6♦4♥
3♠ 6♦4♠
3N 6♦4♣
or
2N 6♦ un-balanced, may have 4M
..3♣ <Shortage?>
.... 3♦ 4M
...... 3♥ <Major?>
.. 3♥ 3263
.. 3♠ 1363
.. 3N 3361
3♣ 6♦ semi-balanced, 3♦ asks for fragment
3♦ xx54
3♥ x45x
3♠ 4x5x
3N xx64

You can also use 2N as pre-emptive in ♣ or some strong minor orientated hand, and lets throw in a strong 55xx
2N-3♣
3♦ 55xx
3♥ xx45
3♠ xx55
3N xx46

4441s can fit well into 1♣ taking a 'birthright' type approach
So after 1♣-1♦
2♣ 5+♣ or 4144
2♦ 4414
2♥ 4441
2♠ 1444