[arepo24]

Your hand:
S -KJ762
H -KJ
D- J1073
C- Q10 = 11 points

You open: 1S
Your partner responds 2D
What is my next bid?

[mikeh]

I open almost all 11 counts in my serious partnerships, but I would have passed this hand. No aces, 3 jacks, no texture in the spade suit, more than half my high card points in my short suits: opening this hand is asking for a bad board.

As to my rebid, assuming I was asked to fill in on an emergency basis (because the opening bidder became violently ill when partner bid 2D), I’d sneak a look at our convention card. Was 2D forcing to game? More importantly, would a 2S rebid promise at least 6 spades?

If, as I always play, 2S can be on 5, that’s my choice, concealing the diamonds for now. I want to see what partner rebids. If he bids 2N, I raise to 3, because my round suit cards will help. If he rebids 3D, I pass unless it’s forcing, in which case I try 3H.

I generally live by the aphorism ‘support with support’ but raising 2D to 3D is simply asking for trouble. This hand is horrible, and usually a raise is a call that excites partner. I need to apply the brakes, if possible. If 2S shows 6+, then my system (and my poor judgement at my first turn) endplays me into 3D.

[arepo24]

Fair enough Mike H. I agree I should have passed my hand.
Now what happens when your partner tells you that you cannot pass (as I did) her 2D response as she had 18 points and was looking at slam.
I asked why she had not instead either jumped to 3D instead of 2 or better supported my spades with her A 3 times.
She replied that jumping to 3D would have indicated only a weak jump shift hand.
So I asked what she thought I could possibly bid instead of pass and she said 2NT. With 2 suits of 2 cards only I was afraid to go that route.
Help.

[AL78]

I wouldn't open that rubbish but if I had, I would raise partner to 3♦. This doesn't show anything extra other than diamond support. No you shouldn't pass when partner is unlimited, and that is the danger with opening sub-minimum hands, you find partner with a good hand who drives to game or slam going off. It is at least partly your fault if that happens.

[arepo24]

Yes AL78 I imagine that is the only "safe" bid I could make. She said bid 2NT but I shivered to think what trouble could lie ahead.
When all is said and done, why instead did she not support my 1S bid with a jump to 3 Spades? What is wrong with that bid?

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2020-July-22, 11:09, said:

I wouldn't open that rubbish but if I had, I would raise partner to 3♦. This doesn't show anything extra other than diamond support.

Be careful when you make such general statements. There is a school of thought that says that one needs a sound opening hand to raise. That school of thought has, by logical inference, permit a 2S rebid on a bad 5 card suit, since no other call may be possible. If 2S shows at least six, then one cannot play the 3D shows good values’ and thus one is endplayed into 3D.

There are very few absolutes in bidding theory, especially as the auction progresses: much is dependent on style, if not on specific agreements.

As for the OP, if one is thinking that one should pass partner’s forcing bid in an uncontested auction, that simply tells one that one should not have opened. Having opened, one CANNOT pass.

My bitter experience tells me that, no matter how much I regret an earlier choice, I will regret trying retroactively to change my mind even more. Do NOT change horses in midstream. Having made the error of treating this as an opener, stick with that view. Yes, you may get a bad board, but that pales in comparison to the harm done, now and in the long term, with passing

[Stephen Tu]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 10:56, said:

Fair enough Mike H. I agree I should have passed my hand.
Now what happens when your partner tells you that you cannot pass (as I did) her 2D response as she had 18 points and was looking at slam.

Passing 2D is absurd. Non-jump new suits are forcing by unpassed responder hands, period, on the first round (and almost always on subsequent rounds also, barring specific agreements on certain auctions), in any kind of standardish natural system. Your partner can have all the rest of the high cards in the deck for all you know.

If you are playing 2/1 GF, the 2D is forcing to game. Otherwise you need agreements on what sequences of rebids are forcing and which are not. These days 2/1 GF is most common, if not most play that 2/1 promises a rebid by responder, and certain actions by responder are NF (like a rebid of 2/1 suit, or 2nt), if opener doesn't show extra values.

Maybe you passed because you felt guilty about opening this junky hand. But it's too late now, once you open you are committed, you can't just go around passing partner's forcing calls as they are unlimited and can easily have extras compensating for your sub-par opening.

Quote

I asked why she had not instead either jumped to 3D instead of 2 or better supported my spades with her A 3 times.
She replied that jumping to 3D would have indicated only a weak jump shift hand.

Jump shifts can be played as a multitude of things by agreement, can be weak (~5/6-8/9), strong (17+), invitational (~10-12), can be completely artificial (usually some sort of raise). But even if one were playing strong jump shifts you don't always jump with all strong hands, because the auction (especially 3 level jump shifts) is very space consuming, and you have an alternative of making a low level forcing call and continuing with forcing calls later. Playing 2/1 GF almost no one plays 3 level strong jumps. And if not, strong jumps are usually played "Soloway style" where they are made only with certain well defined hand types (solid suit, semi-balanced willing to bid NT next, huge fit for partner and a 2nd good suit). With non-great suits, 2nd possible suit that isn't partner's opening suit, you generally just bid slower and make low level forcing calls, reveal the extra strength later in auction if slam still possible.

Quote

So I asked what she thought I could possibly bid instead of pass and she said 2NT. With 2 suits of 2 cards only I was afraid to go that route.
Help.

It depends if you are playing 2/1 GF or not, and a bunch of partnership agreements on whether raises of minor show extras, what your "catchall" bid is, whether 2S shows extra length, etc. Playing 2/1 some players just go ahead and raise 3d even on min range hands, but personally I don't like that because it consumes a lot of space, and there is not a lot of room left below 3nt for responder with a bit extra to decide whether to risk bypassing 3nt to invite slam. I prefer to raise minors directly only with extras, bidding a catchall (usu 2S without special agreements) and supporting with 3D later if convenient.

Not playing 2/1, you pretty much have to play the raise as extras, as the 2/1 promises a rebid and you will self-propel too high if you don't slow the auction down.
Rebidding 2nt is I guess OK, if playing 2/1, it's kind of weird with only outside doubletons and diamond support but you do have 2 holdings you'd rather the lead come into rather than through. But it can backfire if partner doesn't have anything in clubs and raises to 3nt.

[msjennifer]

Sir,To be frank,I shall ALWAYS PASS this rubbish hand of ,borrowed from somewhere,11 HCP with these deplorable NINE LOSERS AND ZERO WINNERS.However , in the given sequence my rebid is a straightforward 3♦

[Stephen Tu]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 11:17, said:

Yes AL78 I imagine that is the only "safe" bid I could make. She said bid 2NT but I shivered to think what trouble could lie ahead.
When all is said and done, why instead did she not support my 1S bid with a jump to 3 Spades? What is wrong with that bid?

1s-3s is just impossible unless you are playing Goren style 60+ year old rubber bridge methods. And even then it's probably wrong.

1S-3S used to be forcing, but it hasn't been played that way for half a century except in perhaps senior center casual rubber bridge. These days it's always NF, probably invitational without discussion, but many people play it even weaker than that (weak, or maybe mixed=~7-9). So bidding it with 18 pts would be absurd.

And even in the days playing it as forcing, usually you wouldn't do it with just 3 cd support. You'd do it with the hands that these days bid a forcing Jacoby 2nt raise (1s-2nt, probably a convention you need to learn eventually?), usually 4+ support and balanced. With 3 cds it's usually better to bid a new suit, as you can find out more about partner's hand, she might do something interesting with the space available to show useful extras in either hcp or shape or both. 3S takes away a lot of bidding room, you can always just bid 2/1 then support partner in a forcing way later (requires more discussion if not playing 2/1 GF)

[arepo24]

I want to thank all of you for your wonderful advice. This was a true learning experience and discovered a bid that I will veer away from forever.
Bless y'all!

[AL78]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 11:17, said:

Yes AL78 I imagine that is the only "safe" bid I could make. She said bid 2NT but I shivered to think what trouble could lie ahead.
When all is said and done, why instead did she not support my 1S bid with a jump to 3 Spades? What is wrong with that bid?

It is non-forcing and she holds an 18 count opposite an opening bid. I assume you don't have a way of making a direct forcing raise, if not the only way partner can show a game going hand with spade support is to bid a new suit (forcing), then jump to 4♠, or drive to slam if your rebid upgrades her hand. If you raise to 3♦ that might well incite her to go slamming based on a lot of HCP strength and a double fit.

[nige1]

arepo24's bidding problem
++++++++++++++++++++
Assuming 2/1, I rank...
1. 2NT = NAT Agree with arepo24's partner that you should try to declare because of your round-suit holdings.
2. 2♠ = NAT Doesn't normally show 6-cards.
3. 3♦ = NAT Might excite partner too much.
4. Pass = Anti-systemic. If it turns out badly, then grovel; but you'll probably still have to look for a new partner

---

[FelicityR]

1. Don't open except playing 10-15 1M Precision. The hand is a measly 9.85 on the Kaplan and Rubens evaluator.
2. NEVER pass a forcing bid by partner as partner could be unlimited.
3. Re-assess your own online profile level from 'Advanced' downwards. Apologies to be blunt. You say you don't play RKC and passing a forcing bid by partner is as Stephen Tu says, is absurd, even with a poor hand.
4. As to what to bid next, I agree entirely with Nigel. Rebidding a poor ♠ suit is horrible. 3♦ might excite partner. Pass is absurd. So take the least ghastly option having opened light and bid 2NT here.

[SelfGovern]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 09:59, said:

Your hand:
S -KJ762
H -KJ
D- J1073
C- Q10 = 11 points

You open: 1S
Your partner responds 2D
What is my next bid?

Here's the meta-answer: what you need to know for not just this hand, but for all your future hands.

First -- you need to agree with your partner on a system. Since finding games and slams (and the *right* ones!) is so important, one of the most important things you can do is agree on how you can create a game force, and then what bids mean in that context -- what's a move toward slam? What's a signoff in game? etc.

The current winner of the bidding popularity poll in the US is called "2/1 game forcing". It has a few 'flavors', and it has some conventional bids you'll have to learn, like 1NT over a major suit bid is forcing for one round, and may not be a balanced shape. But it's a sound system, and if you learn it, your bidding accuracy will greatly improve (and your ability to hang on to the good partners will also increase). "Standard Bridge Bidding for the 21st Century" by Hardy is a good book to bring you and a partner up to speed. If you love that, he's got an advanced book too "Advanced bidding ... Century"

Second, Losing Trick Count (LTC) is an important tool in hand evaluation. The hand you posted had eight or more losers; a typical opening bid will have seven. If you've got a hand that's light in HCP but has good honor structure and seven or fewer losers by LTC, you can consider opening it. But if it's below normal in HCP and more losers than normal in LTC, and poor honor structure to boot... well, nobody says you have to open that hand. I do recommend you spend some time online researching LTC, it is a very useful supplemental tool to High Card Points.

Third is care and feeding of partner. sometimes you realize you have done something you should not have done. Passing in the middle of a forcing auction is rarely a good way out. If, as in this case, you pass leaving partner in a terrible contract, or miss a game or slam, well, that's what they call a "Partner Asking Bid" (as in, they'll be asking for a different partner next time you want to play). Sometimes you just have to keep bidding until partner stops forcing, and hope it works out (keep bidding while making the weakest possible calls). Plus, carefully analyzed what went wrong from your side, and remember to not make that mistake again.

Fourth, there are certain treatments or agreements that nearly all good bridge players have found to be extremely useful/important. You need to have some way to learn those. One of them, for instance, is that immediate forcing raises of a major suit must show at least four trump (1!S - 3!S, if you play that forcing, or 1!S - 2NT in the modern style). I encourage you to do some reading on whatever system you do agree to adopt to make sure you and your partner are on the same page.

Fifth-ish: there are lots of auctions where there is no "standard" agreement. You and your partner need to develop understandings for what those sequences mean. Among them are:
- Jump Shifts by responder: Strong (forcing to game and slam interest), weak (like an opening weak 2 bid, but even weaker!), or intermediate (just forcing to game, which is terrible in my opinion).
- How do you create a game force when partner opens a major? When he opens a minor?
- What do your bids mean when the opps interfere with your 1NT opening?
- How do you interfere with their 1NT opening?
There's more - I encourage you to spend time going over a standard ACBL convention card with your partner and use it as a springboard to reaching agreement and pushing your understanding of the auction phase of bridge. I believe there was a series in the ACBL Bulletin starting about a year ago that covered the different sections of the convention card and helped explain what the options mean. If you're an ACBL member, you can reference back issues for free, and it would be well worth your time to go over it with a regular partner... but very worthwhile for you to do it yourself if you don't have a regular partner, so you'll know what all the pickup partners are talking about!

Best of luck to you. It's great that you're here and asking questions!

Thomas.

[bluenikki]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 09:59, said:

Your hand:
S -KJ762
H -KJ
D- J1073
C- Q10 = 11 points

You open: 1S
Your partner responds 2D
What is my next bid?

If both you and your partner agree that this is a normal minimum opening, then why would you not raise to 3♦?

Carl

[bluenikki]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 09:59, said:

Your hand:
S -KJ762
H -KJ
D- J1073
C- Q10 = 11 points

You open: 1S
Your partner responds 2D
What is my next bid?

If both you and your partner agree that this is a normal minimum opening, then why would you not raise to 3♦?

Carl

[bluenikki]

arepo24, on 2020-July-22, 10:56, said:

Fair enough Mike H. I agree I should have passed my hand.
Now what happens when your partner tells you that you cannot pass (as I did) her 2D response as she had 18 points and was looking at slam.
I asked why she had not instead either jumped to 3D instead of 2 or better supported my spades with her A 3 times.
She replied that jumping to 3D would have indicated only a weak jump shift hand.
So I asked what she thought I could possibly bid instead of pass and she said 2NT. With 2 suits of 2 cards only I was afraid to go that route.
Help.

Your partner thinks that weak jump shifts are so universal that you c an spring them without notice.

Give up on this partner.

[bluenikki]

Stephen Tu, on 2020-July-22, 11:37, said:

1s-3s is just impossible unless you are playing Goren style 60+ year old rubber bridge methods. And even then it's probably wrong.

1S-3S used to be forcing, but it hasn't been played that way for half a century except in perhaps senior center casual rubber bridge. These days it's always NF, probably invitational without discussion, but many people play it even weaker than that (weak, or maybe mixed=~7-9). So bidding it with 18 pts would be absurd.

And even in the days playing it as forcing, usually you wouldn't do it with just 3 cd support. You'd do it with the hands that these days bid a forcing Jacoby 2nt raise (1s-2nt, probably a convention you need to learn eventually?), usually 4+ support and balanced. With 3 cds it's usually better to bid a new suit, as you can find out more about partner's hand, she might do something interesting with the space available to show useful extras in either hcp or shape or both. 3S takes away a lot of bidding room, you can always just bid 2/1 then support partner in a forcing way later (requires more discussion if not playing 2/1 GF)

Goren never jump-raised with only 3-card support.

[Stephen Tu]

bluenikki, on 2020-July-23, 08:01, said:

If both you and your partner agree that this is a normal minimum opening, then why would you not raise to 3♦?

Because it's tough to deal with an 11-20 hcp range for 3d with only a couple steps left below 3nt. The toughest hands to deal with are when both players have some extra but not a lot extra, say ~16 opposite 16 and slam is cold or excellent. Opener raises, responder does ?? If opener can have garbage like this in the raise, this is more common, responder is forced into 3nt as that might be the last making game opposite junk like this. But if opener has the better hand, and responder also has extras, slam is missed. Because opener can't really easily move over 3nt with 16 since 4nt might not make opposite responder's min 12-13, plus if you are bidding 4nt on 16 what do you do with 18-19 where you definitely want to move over 3nt, but don't want to force slam?

If by agreement you rebid 2s (or if getting fancy an artificial 2h?), responder has some extra steps and opener may still be able to support at 3d and have limited their hand from failure to raise immediately.
Raising immediately is much more attractive playing a limited opening system e.g. Precision.

[bluenikki]

Stephen Tu, on 2020-July-23, 08:45, said:

Because it's tough to deal with an 11-20 hcp range for 3d with only a couple steps left below 3nt. The toughest hands to deal with are when both players have some extra but not a lot extra, say ~16 opposite 16 and slam is cold or excellent. Opener raises, responder does ?? If opener can have garbage like this in the raise, this is more common, responder is forced into 3nt as that might be the last making game opposite junk like this. But if opener has the better hand, and responder also has extras, slam is missed. Because opener can't really easily move over 3nt with 16 since 4nt might not make opposite responder's min 12-13, plus if you are bidding 4nt on 16 what do you do with 18-19 where you definitely want to move over 3nt, but don't want to force slam?

If by agreement you rebid 2s (or if getting fancy an artificial 2h?), responder has some extra steps and opener may still be able to support at 3d and have limited their hand from failure to raise immediately.
Raising immediately is much more attractive playing a limited opening system e.g. Precision.

You are talking about the inherent difficulty of arranging responses/rebids to allow opening bids like this. But if you agree to open junkpiles like this, you are insane if you haven't done that arranging.

This is your *last* chance to show ♦ support, rather than tolerance.