[Dinarius]

At Matchpoints, playing Strong NT/5 card, your partner opens a natural 1♦

East's 3♠ is weak. Both sides Vul.

Given that N may have everything from a re-biddable 11 count in ♦ to a bad 1NT 12 count rebid, to a powerhouse, what is your bid now?

You are playing negative doubles.

D.

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[DavidKok]

I double. On auctions like this you have to be comfortable stretching a bit, even at matchpoints. Plus partner could pass.

[apollo1201]

Tough. MP’s so less risky to act.
We could be up to a magic 200’s (or -730!).
Partner could bid 3NT or 4H, and that contract might not be dead from the start.
I have 4 hrs, the question would be much harder with 2344 for instance.
So I am Xing and partner will understand my stretch.
What should she do, btw, with a reasonable S stopper and 4H, in a hand around 12-14 balanced?

[DavidKok]

That depends on what you mean with 'a reasonable S stopper'. Also for most people a double does not 100% guarantee a four-card heart suit here, so 4♥ is risky. I think all of pass, 3NT and 4♥ are possible depending on the exact hand. For example if I held KQTx, Txxx, AKx, xx I would confidently pass and take the plus score to the bank, but with Ax, KQxx, AJTx, xx 4♥ is near automatic (although I guess a lot of people would 'upgrade' this to 1NT).

[FelicityR]

I actually like 'Pass' here. If we end up in a contract there is good chance that the suits are going to behave badly. Admittedly it is borderline, but since partner hasn't opened 1NT strong here there's more likelihood that he/she has a weak hand. The last thing I wish to do is encourage partner with my balanced 10 count to go to game. If partner has a strong hand perhaps they can balance, Pre-empts sometimes work.

[mikeh]

For those doubling, let me ask you what you hope to gain?

When you hold a flat 10 count, and partner did not open 1N, what is partner’s most probable hand-type? Of course, he could have a wide range of hands, but the single most likely hand is a weak 1N, possibly with 5 diamonds, say 2353.

When you picked up this hand, did you immediately think that ‘hey, I’m going to force to game if partner opens 1D?

If not, what about this auction made you change your mind? Is it your tremendous diamond holding? Or that powerful spade combination? Or the great heart suit?

Of course, double could win.

But there are far more hand-types where doubling leads to at least -200.

Bear in mind that you have no reason to think that your RHO did anything strange, so that you should assume that most pairs are facing this same situation. Thus you want to take the percentage action. Don’t go hunting magic scores. Don’t let the opponents bully you into a call that rates to result in a bad score

Also, double is very committal. Passing, otoh, does not foreclose partner bidding. Admittedly, there will be hands where he can’t act, and yet the hand belongs to you. But put it this way: most times partner has a normal opening, bidding will work badly. Some times, when partner has a hand that makes bidding work, he can reopen.

Also, both vulnerable is the worst time to push. If you were non-vul, going down 2 undoubled or 1 doubled beats their possible 140.

Here’s a hint about match points: don’t push flat hands in the bidding. Stay in the boat. Grind the cards in the play, both declarer and defender.

And, btw, make sure that you and your partner ALWAYS pause when an opponent jumps. Otherwise you are, whether you realize it or not, cheating. Say you’d pass in a flash if you were lacking the club Ace, but wrestle with your decision on this hand....your slow pass tells partner a great deal about your hand.

Edit: reverse the majors, and have rho overcall 3H, and I’d see this as being as clear a negative double as I see pass, on the posted hand/auction. While doubling 3H, with Kxxx xx xxx AQJx may lead to a bad board, it is has the advantage of allowing us to p,any 3S on that subset of hands where opener has 4 spades.

[nige1]

Dinarius "At Matchpoints, playing Strong NT/5 card, your partner opens a natural 1♦. East's 3♠ is weak. Both sides Vul.Given that N may have everything from a re-biddable 11 count in ♦ to a bad 1NT 12 count rebid, to a powerhouse, what is your bid now? You are playing negative doubles."
++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. Double = NEG (Perhaps foolhardy but chosen before reading the sage advice of FelicityR and MikeH).
2. Pass = NAT MikeH is right: the green card is underused.
In defence of action: Sometimes, we'll be able to make a 4-level contract. More often, opponents can make 3/4♠, so double may enable a profitable sacrifice. Mercifully, at match-pointed pairs, it's question of frequency. Admittedly, the vulnerability is a worrying consideration.

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[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2020-October-01, 07:10, said:

When you hold a flat 10 count, and partner did not open 1N, what is partner’s most probable hand-type? Of course, he could have a wide range of hands, but the single most likely hand is a weak 1N, possibly with 5 diamonds, say 2353.

Would it make a difference to you if you were playing a Weak NT and 1♦ promises 4+ (ie Acol and the like)?

[Cyberyeti]

I normally play a weak NT, so don't have the issue of partner having one of those, so double is clearer, but playing strong I'm protecting myself from 3♠-1 vs our 3♦/♥/1N+1. I don't think 3♠= undoubled will be a great score, and partner needs to be aware we think like that and take his chances passing with many minimum 3442s.

[mycroft]

OP: remember, "playing negative doubles" isn't complete. "Playing negative doubles through [something]" is. For instance, one of the shocks of SAYC to modern audiences is that negative doubles go through 2♠ only. I've played that (and got 1100 out of a local pro who had the misfortune of hitting the only pair in the room for whom 1♠-3♦-X was penalty), I've played "through 3♠", I've played "through 7♥" (though of course the expectation that the double will get passed gets exponentially higher the higher the preempt goes). But assuming you play negX through at least 3♠...

Thank you Mike, again. I probably would double, too, but you are right, it is good and bad, and the "flat 12" is the most likely hand in partner. I expect that -100 into +140 is our best hope of gain (with no "I think it's our hand" double from fourth, that's a scary thing as you said), with game actually making coming next. But turning a plus into a minus is also high on the list of possibles.

Zel: no idea playing Acol; I don't understand how to play a weak NT and Acol openers. Playing K/S, I would answer Mike's "when partner opened 1♦, did you think you were forcing to game?" question with "Yep, most likely." And if not, partner's got what I call "an overstrength 2♦ opener" - say 12, 13 with 6 decent diamonds and shortness. That hand I'm quite happy to play 4♦ on, if I have to.

Also, playing K/S, Mike's other statement: "you should assume most other pairs are facing the same auction" absolutely doesn't apply in the fields I play in. Most pairs, much of the time, are facing (1NT)-3♠ if they're unlucky, 1NT-(whatever call shows spades, from x to 2♦ to 2♠) if they're lucky. Sure, partner could have the "overstrength preempt", partner could have the 1=4=4=4 that promotes to 15 if I have hearts, partner could have the 1=3=5=4 she's hoping to survive with, partner could have the 18+ hand, but most likely she's got a strong NT opener, and we're facing a different auction from the field. And that is always something I have to think about, as well.

[Dinarius]

Great responses. Food for thought. Thanks.

If you Pass, LHO passes and Partner bids 4♦️. Do you bid 5♦️ now?

I guess my main concern was MPs tactics and the equal vulnerability. Isn’t it so important to be in the auction at MPs? Put it another way, do those advocating Pass do so at Imps? I would. But, I’m still not convinced by Pass at MPs.

We have more than half the deck. If they steal +140, we’re scoring near zero. If partner passes, as has been said to be very likely, and they go forward minus one, even +100 to us may not be great. Yes, preempts do sometimes work. So, does that strengthen the case for bidding?

D.

[DavidKok]

I'm not sold on the case for passing at MP yet. In particular, I see people playing different preemptive (and opening) styles everywhere, after 1♦-(3♠)-? I am no longer confident that we are faced with the same problem as the rest of the field. I judge the given hand to be relatively poor for defending 3♠, so I wish to inform partner of this with a negative double. Maybe we can make something at the 4-level, maybe partner can pass for that sweet 3♠X-1, and sometimes we'll score a bottom. I think the percentage action is to inform partner of our strength and most of our shape.

Dinarius presents the problem after 1♦-(3♠)-P-(P); 4♦-(P)-?. I think this auction is another strong argument for doubling, as I have no clue what to do next. I try to live by 'quick in, quick out' and 'leaving the last guess to the opponents', and pass on the previous round comes back to bite me. Presumably partner is balancing with short spades (shown by a failure to double, with a strong hand partner will want to keep the options of 3♠X and 3NT open), but the bid is wide-ranged. I might bid 5♦ at the table, and hope partner will forgive me regardless of the outcome.

At IMPs the arguments are different but if anything the case for doubling seems stronger to me. If we go -200 thats a measly 2 IMPs against their 3♠ making, and I do not wish to brave missing 4♥. The worst case is a partscore swing, where doubling pushes us to the 4-level going off one (or two?) while their 3♠ was also off one and partner couldn't sit for the double. That's bad, but not as bad as being the only table to write -140 instead of +620.

[blackshoe]

Play a system in which balanced hands are not opened with one of a suit. That will at least eliminate the "partner has a balanced 12 count when I do this' problem.

[Cyberyeti]

blackshoe, on 2020-October-01, 13:22, said:

Play a system in which balanced hands are not opened with one of a suit. That will at least eliminate the "partner has a balanced 12 count when I do this' problem.

You don't have to go that far, simply playing a weak no trump is sufficient thus eliminating MINIMUM balanced hands, if partner has a strong notrump he can probably choose from good options.

[mikeh]

The OP posted that we are playing a strong 1N, 5 card major method. Why are so many posters basing their advice/position on playing a weak notrump method?

The considerations are very different in a weak notrump context, since we have a gf opposite a strong notrump (although the auction may mean that we can't make a game)

If partner has less than a strong notrump, he will often have 5+ diamonds or other shape that offers us 4 level safety. Thus a double is pretty clear, just as a pass is pretty clear in the methods described by the OP.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2020-October-01, 12:35, said:

If we go -200 thats a measly 2 IMPs against their 3♠ making, and I do not wish to brave missing 4♥. The worst case is a partscore swing, where doubling pushes us to the 4-level going off one (or two?) while their 3♠ was also off one and partner couldn't sit for the double. That's bad, but not as bad as being the only table to write -140 instead of +620.

if your worst case is going to the 4-level off one or two against 3S off 1, then you live a charmed life, or play in weak competition, or both.

---

this is closer to a real world worst case scenario. -800 on a passive club lead looks normal.

Well, partner (and teammates) I didn't want to be pushed around and miss a 620.

Now, do we bid in fear of worst case scenarios happening often? Of course not, but it is absurd to try to justify bidding by lying to yourself about worst case scenarios.

And lest you claim that, of course, your North passes 3S x'd, note that that trades 800 for 730:)

And of course partner has to cater to you holding a much better offensive playing hand, so will never pass with 4 hearts or short spades.

Now, if your experience is that partner's always hold magic cards and never do the wrong thing and, importantly, your opps rarely double what is in front of their face, go ahead. You'll do well in your weak field:)

[johnu]

mikeh, on 2020-October-01, 14:41, said:

The OP posted that we are playing a strong 1N, 5 card major method. Why are so many posters basing their advice/position on playing a weak notrump method?

Because they aren't familiar with OP's system but still want to participate in the discussion?

[sfi]

Dinarius, on 2020-October-01, 11:52, said:

If you Pass, LHO passes and Partner bids 4♦️. Do you bid 5♦️ now?

You kind of have to. Your partner contracted for 10 tricks vul, and enough of your cards should be valuable for game. I actually want to make a 5C cue bid, but partner might not take it that way (they should) and partner might also think I had a hand that want to penalise 3S. So game it is.

Quote

I guess my main concern was MPs tactics and the equal vulnerability. Isn’t it so important to be in the auction at MPs? Put it another way, do those advocating Pass do so at Imps? I would. But, I’m still not convinced by Pass at MPs.

We have more than half the deck. If they steal +140, we’re scoring near zero. If partner passes, as has been said to be very likely, and they go forward minus one, even +100 to us may not be great. Yes, preempts do sometimes work. So, does that strengthen the case for bidding?

Most of the time 3S will be a normal action, so you're not having a partscore stolen from you - that was never on offer. The first question you should be asking is how are you most likely to go positive. IMO game is a dubious gamble, so I'm not going to force to one. We could easily be collecting 200 from 3S undoubled, but we also win anytime we beat it one and we don't have game, or when they make 3S and we're about to go -2 (or -1 doubled).

[Cyberyeti]

johnu, on 2020-October-01, 15:10, said:

Because they aren't familiar with OP's system but still want to participate in the discussion?

And also people often sneeringly comment (not so much here) about how superior the strong notrump is, so when we come across one of the scenarios a strong NT causes issues, we tend to point them out. Much like when you miss your 10 card club fit because you opened your 6 or 7 card suit with a 2+ club and got preempted.

[mycroft]

Because someone asked if it made a difference. And it does.

The OP has their answer(s) - and I was careful to deal with their condition before going down the side path that the question raised.