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7 diamonds Is it possible and how do you find it?

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-20, 22:49

Here's the hand and the bidding in a club game with 17 tables.
I was sitting East, and while I waited for the round change, I anticipated a score of about 10-20%. Afterwards, I was surprised to find that we made 62.5%
So, my question is - playing SAYC or 2/1 - is there any way to find 6-7D, or is it just a freak?



Afterwards, my partner said she didn't want to bid up because she couldn't imagine I would have such a good hand after all the bidding.
At my current level, I doubt I would have done any different.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#2 User is offline   spade7 

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Posted 2021-January-20, 23:23

Passing 3D can't be right. West should respond 4. East could then bid 5 exclusion keycard.
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#3 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 02:16

Never double West. They always have extras.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 03:30

Not sure you want to be in 7, but you definitely want to be in 6, N could have the K, but if he does is VERY unlikely to have the K too.

What was 3, a lot of people play it as a fit jump showing spades also, but without knowing how much it's showing it's difficult to judge how much W should bid.
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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-January-21, 04:51

I think that you should be able to find game

Slam? I'm not so sure.
The Jack and Ten of spades are really big cards here

I prefer 3 to 3
Alderaan delenda est
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#6 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 02:16

View Posthrothgar, on 2021-January-21, 04:51, said:

I think that you should be able to find game

Slam? I'm not so sure.
The Jack and Ten of spades are really big cards here

I prefer 3 to 3


So, 3 to show a strong hand with a spade fit?
My concern at the time was that my partner was an overcaller and might only have 9HCP.
Interestingly, on this hand, it also makes 6.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 03:32

Pilowsky 'Here's the hand and the bidding in a club game with 17 tables. I was sitting East, and while I waited for the round change, I anticipated a score of about 10-20%. Afterwards, I was surprised to find that we made 62.5%So, my question is - playing SAYC or 2/1 - is there any way to find 6-7D, or is it just a freak? Afterwards, my partner said she didn't want to bid up because she couldn't imagine I would have such a good hand after all the bidding. At my current level, I doubt I would have done any different.
++++++++++++++++++
Thanks Pilowsky. Perhaps, you should agree that, after an overcall. change-of-suit by advancer is forcing. Then you might have an auction like that on the left.
John Matheson suggests you should be reluctant to cue shortages in partner's suit, so 3, by East, should show an honour.
Edited to change response to 2 rather than 3

This post has been edited by nige1: 2021-January-22, 12:50

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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 04:14

View Postnige1, on 2021-January-22, 03:32, said:

John Matheson suggests you should be reluctant to cue shortages in partner's suit, so 4, by East, should show an honour. [/hv]


Yes, but normally specifically the K, makes a huge difference if partner has Axxxx in assessing the slam given that you won't have 3 spades.

I would bid 4 rather than 4, partner cues hearts, now you bid 4 if you have the agreement that this can be the Q rather than a stiff.
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#9 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 05:31

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-January-22, 02:16, said:

So, 3 to show a strong hand with a spade fit?
My concern at the time was that my partner was an overcaller and might only have 9HCP.
Interestingly, on this hand, it also makes 6.


3 to show a strong hand (which might have a Spade fit)
Alderaan delenda est
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 06:00

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-22, 04:14, said:

I would bid 4 rather than 4, partner cues hearts, now you bid 4 if you have the agreement that this can be the Q rather than a stiff.

IMO,
  • 4 seems an underbid with 14 HCP, including solid s, 2 useful queens, and nothing wasted in s.
  • If your system forbids a 4 bid, then you should bid the game, at least.
  • Anyway, it's quite hard to construct a plausible auction to a small slam, let alone a grand.

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#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 07:03

The relevant auction is (1)-1-(2)-3; (P)-4*-(P)-?. I would assume that 4* is a game force (opposite 3 which already promised extra values), so 4 is forcing and stronger than 5 here. By contrast, 3 says "I have some values and/or length, if you have a club stopper please show me" and 3 says "Sorry partner, no dice", both of which allow you to stop in 4 (as well as a direct NF 4 raise).
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 07:43

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-January-22, 07:03, said:

The relevant auction is (1)-1-(2)-3; (P)-4*-(P)-?. I would assume that 4* is a game force (opposite 3 which already promised extra values), so 4 is forcing and stronger than 5 here. By contrast, 3 says "I have some values and/or length, if you have a club stopper please show me" and 3 says "Sorry partner, no dice", both of which allow you to stop in 4 (as well as a direct NF 4 raise).
I was mistaken :( I now agree with David Kok and Cyberyeti that that 4 is forcing in the context of the auction. I misread the earlier auction :( not realizing that East jumped to 3. Instead, I would bid a simple 2, because, I play a jump to 3 as showing primary support.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 09:09

View Postnige1, on 2021-January-22, 06:00, said:

IMO,
  • 4 seems an underbid with 14 HCP, including solid s, 2 useful queens, and nothing wasted in s.
  • If your system forbids a 4 bid, then you should bid the game, at least.
  • Anyway, it's quite hard to construct a plausible auction to a small slam, let alone a grand.



I assumed 3 was GF given the hand so 4 is better than 5. (and I play 3 showing spade support so would bid 2)

The only advantage I would have is that that hand is basically rock bottom minimum for a 1 overcall for us (and we respond more or less as we would to an opening 1), so partner will get more excited immediately.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-22, 21:12

There is much in an auction like this that depends on agreements so it is not to surprising that it caused some issues. First up is the meaning of a jump shift in response to an overcall. Traditionally such a call shows a weak hand with a long suit but these days most good pairs play these as some kind of raise, with fit jumps being the most popular method. I strongly recommend reading Partnership Bidding at Bridge (available online for free) for a description of the various different ways that top players find of showing support for partner in a competitive auction.

So not 3 but what would 2 mean? Well there are two common schools of thought. The first plays a change of suit as a constructive but non-forcing and a hand that wants to force then needs to cue (here 3). The second plays a change of suit as forcing and then the cue can specifically show a good raise. All of the Australians I know (from the Acol Club) use the latter method.

So let us assume 2 and now shift back over to West. This call is also interesting. West could bid a simple, constructive 2; an invitational 3; a game-forcing 3; or a 4 splinter raise. Which of these you prefer is largely a matter of style. I tend to prefer a cooperative style when playing natural methods in a constructive auction so I quite like the weird looking 2 (planning to show diamond support next). When partner now shows secondary spade support, our hand suddenly looks powerful despite only having 9hcp, particularly if we can now find out that partner lacks club values. So perhaps something like:

(1) - 1 - (2) - 2; 2 - 2; 3 - 3; 5 - 5NT; 6 - 6

Honestly though, at your level just reaching 5 is pretty good bidding, so you should focus on working out with your partner when a competitive auction is constructive and when you are merely competing. It is important that partner trust you, not the opps, when all sides are bidding; if you can quickly define the range while showing shape it will not only improve your bidding but also make life much easier for you.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#15 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2022-June-29, 09:07

Also I am for the immediate cue of 3 (= UCB) after which the partner will probably repeat the but, in this case, declaring 4 (= further extension of UCB) will be clear to the partner that you have a self-supporting suit and should cue 4 to agree. Also in the hypothesis that the opponents do not bid, with RKB you will discover the void in which should at least lead you (almost) to 6 .
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#16 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2022-June-29, 14:27

View Postnige1, on 2021-January-22, 03:32, said:

Pilowsky 'Here's the hand and the bidding in a club game with 17 tables. I was sitting East, and while I waited for the round change, I anticipated a score of about 10-20%. Afterwards, I was surprised to find that we made 62.5%So, my question is - playing SAYC or 2/1 - is there any way to find 6-7D, or is it just a freak? Afterwards, my partner said she didn't want to bid up because she couldn't imagine I would have such a good hand after all the bidding. At my current level, I doubt I would have done any different.
++++++++++++++++++
Thanks Pilowsky. Perhaps, you should agree that, after an overcall. change-of-suit by advancer is forcing. Then you might have an auction like that on the left.
John Matheson suggests you should be reluctant to cue shortages in partner's suit, so 3, by East, should show an honour.
Edited to change response to 2 rather than 3


How about, instead of making it forcing, you agree that it is passed only with a bare minimum misfit?

Like 1 - 1 ; 1NT - 3 .
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#17 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-June-30, 02:14

A standard auction start for me would be 1-1-2-2 with East's 2 promising 10/11+ hcp and close to an opening hand.
(3 would be a fit jump in perhaps looking for game opposite a minimum with 2 eight card fits or a preliminary bid on the way to a slam)
West's support and playing strength is enough for the 3 cue which signals GF/SI. With less than GF support I simply raise to the 3/4 level or show /rebid /bid NT or even Pass with a sub-standard overcall as I may do white versus red

nige1's 3 is an interesting bid promising Hx in case West has 6 or a preference for playing in a Moysian fit. This is a good bid, but partner would need to be on the same wavelength rather than expecting Kx so a subsequent cue of confirms a K..
I also wonder how a spiral scan approach would work (if at all) from here ignoring keycards. Perhaps someone can comment?

Assuming I stick to 1st/2nd round controls 4 denies further controls. 4 then shows 2/4 keycards (playing Kickbo).
East's 4 bid shows Q (note K has previously been denied) and West can bid 5 showing a void denying K.
At this point East can bid 5NT showing the Q and all keycards, which West converts to 6 fearing K offside and missing K
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#18 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2022-June-30, 10:14

It seems that only hrothgar and I opt for the good bidding of 3 (= UCB) which seems (however) to initially support partner in . Only after E it changes to 4 showing a solid suit of 6 / + cards and has this point the partner with the cue of 4 shows the Ace accepting as trump. The following RKB with the answer of 5NT (= 2 keycards with Q / ten card fit + void) clearly shows the 5-4-4-0 in W. So why not choose this bidding line instead of venturing into other ones rounds and then always finish in 6 ?
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#19 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 07:52

Why is there still no comment on my bidding line (explained in # 15 and further clarified in # 18) ?


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#20 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 15:25

View PostLovera, on 2022-July-01, 07:52, said:

Why is there still no comment on my bidding line (explained in # 15 and further clarified in # 18) ?

Since you nicely asked B-)

1. A cursory search of Unassuming Cue Bid shows that 3+ card support for opener's overcall suit is specified. A close inspection of this hand shows Qx as support which is not 3+ card support. Partner may think spades is a good suit to play in when it is not. What are you going to do when partner jumps to 4 and you haven't showed diamonds yet?

2. You are guilty of double dummy bidding. It's easy enough to see double dummy that with near perfect cards and a key club void, 7 is on a finesse on 23 HCP. Give West a more modest shape like 5332 or 5422 and do some simulations.

3. Bidding 3 instead of 2 means you can't introduce diamonds until the 4 level. I doubt that any high level pairs play that a new bid of 4 shows a solid suit and denies 3+ card spade support. Most would play 4 as a cue bid showing a big hand with spade support since you didn't start with 2.
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