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Bid or Pass? Does an overcall change the meaning of your bid?

#1 User is offline   jmcilkley 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 01:31

You hold a pretty miserable hand :

S: 842
H: 963
D: J873
C: AJ3

and partner opens 1c (playing 4 card majors so a natural club bid)
your RHO passes so you make a natural 1d reply
LHO then overcalls 1s and partner reverses to 2h
RHO now bids 2s

Clearly you would have bid 3c without the 2s bid on your right.
But should you still bid 3c or pass? Does bidding 3c show a bit better hand than you have?

I would be very interested in comments.
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 03:19

What does the 2 bid show?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#3 User is offline   jmcilkley 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 04:37

As normal - 5+ clubs and 4+ hearts and being a reverse shows 15+ points
It is forcing for one round.
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 05:40

View Postjmcilkley, on 2021-June-25, 04:37, said:

As normal - 5+ clubs and 4+ hearts and being a reverse shows 15+ points
It is forcing for one round.


those values are very weak for reverse. I expect (17 good)18-19 here as partner has not bid a major suit.
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#5 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 06:47

The reverse is a 1-round force unless there is an intervening bid. With no way to separate good from bad preferences, I would pass. Truthfully I would always pass, not because 3 clubs would be a bad contract but because 4 and 5 clubs probably are bad contracts, and partner will still have another chance to bid if holding extra strength.
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 08:38

I would pass. This is about the most minimal responding hand possible, 4333 shape and 11 losers makes it unappealing to support partner in clubs if I am not forced to bid. Pass and let partner bid again, which they will if they are good for their reverse. The question is what to do if the opponents compete to 3 over whatever partner or you bid next.
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 09:06

Agree with pass if that is the only option. If you have a way to show "bad 3 vs good 3", I would make the "bad 3" bid without the interference; and I would make it with. I have a minimum response, but:
  • partner is likely to have 1 spade, or Kx/Ax, in this auction, and I have no wasted spade values (okay, it could be xx, or worse yet Qx, but still);
  • I have AJ in partner's long suit (which means her points are in the reds);
  • I want partner to have an idea what to do when they bid 3.

It also depends on when your partnership bypasses diamonds to bid hearts. My style is "always, on a one-bid hand, even with 4=6"; so partner can't be expecting a heart fit unless we're particularly lucky (I have invitational values, or she's 5=6). Therefore, she's not saying this to "show 4 hearts", this is serious extra values. If your partnership is "up the line with 4=4 always", then there is more of a pressure to show the hearts.

It also depends on whether double of 1 is support (3 diamonds). If it is, then it is more likely that partner is 2=4=2=5 than 1=4=3=5. Many players don't play support doubles, and others don't play them in diamonds, because of the concern about missing a 4=4 heart fit in this auction.

But I would bid 2NT ("forcing" 3) and pass 3; if they compete to 3 directly over 2NT, then partner is likely to guess which "bad hand" I have.
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#8 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 09:16

If you are not playing support doubles, I would stretch to 3. Partner could have shown a decent hand by doubling 1 for takeout / to show extra values, so 2 should have some serious intent behind it. Vulnerability is not specified, but if we are nv playing in clubs could be cheap, and if we are vul, partner has a seriously good hand to bid 2.

Less confident if you are playing support doubles.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 09:52

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-June-25, 09:16, said:

If you are not playing support doubles, I would stretch to 3. Partner could have shown a decent hand by doubling 1 for takeout / to show extra values, so 2 should have some serious intent behind it. Vulnerability is not specified, but if we are nv playing in clubs could be cheap, and if we are vul, partner has a seriously good hand to bid 2.

Less confident if you are playing support doubles.


For us X shows 4 hearts so 2 is 6-5, if you're not playing support doubles you have to bid, best if you have 2 ways to bid 3 and can choose the bad one.
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#10 User is offline   jmcilkley 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 11:12

Some interesting ideas so far. It seems some think that bidding 3c does not show any more than a minimum opening hand and others think it does. The bidding from partner only promises 5 clubs and 4 hearts so a double after the 2s by opponents could be ambiguous and I would have thought it showed at least 8 points.
What happens if I decide to pass over 2s? Opener is likely to be 2-4-2-5 shape so would they double 2s? Would that show more points? How many?
Clearly this question does not have a simple answer!
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#11 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 11:54

View Postjmcilkley, on 2021-June-25, 11:12, said:

Some interesting ideas so far. It seems some think that bidding 3c does not show any more than a minimum opening hand and others think it does. The bidding from partner only promises 5 clubs and 4 hearts so a double after the 2s by opponents could be ambiguous and I would have thought it showed at least 8 points.
What happens if I decide to pass over 2s? Opener is likely to be 2-4-2-5 shape so would they double 2s? Would that show more points? How many?
Clearly this question does not have a simple answer!

Why do you think opener likely 2425?
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#12 User is offline   jmcilkley 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 12:02

Maybe I should say they are at least 5-4 in clubs and hearts so at most 4 cards in spades and diamonds. They were actually 2-4-2-5.
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 12:15

View Postjmcilkley, on 2021-June-25, 04:37, said:

As normal - 5+ clubs and 4+ hearts and being a reverse shows 15+ points
It is forcing for one round.

While this may be normal for your partnership, it certainly isn't standard.
Given my hand and the agreement above, pass is clear.

View Postjmcilkley, on 2021-June-25, 11:12, said:


Some interesting ideas so far. It seems some think that bidding 3c does not show any more than a minimum opening hand and others think it does. The bidding from partner only promises 5 clubs and 4 hearts so a double after the 2s by opponents could be ambiguous and I would have thought it showed at least 8 points.
What happens if I decide to pass over 2s? Opener is likely to be 2-4-2-5 shape so would they double 2s? Would that show more points? How many?
Clearly this question does not have a simple answer!

It appears that your reverse range could be 15-19? I'd expect partner to have 18-19 for the double.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#14 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 12:48

View Postjmcilkley, on 2021-June-25, 12:02, said:

Maybe I should say they are at least 5-4 in clubs and hearts so at most 4 cards in spades and diamonds. They were actually 2-4-2-5.


What about 46 47 and 56 57 hearts and clubs? x, AKJxx, x, AKQxxx or xx, AKJx, x, AKQ9xx aren't possible?
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-June-25, 12:56

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-25, 12:48, said:

What about 46 47 and 56 57 hearts and clubs? x, AKJxx, x, AKQxxx or xx, AKJx, x, AKQ9xx aren't possible?

Now you're talking. :)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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