[enigmisto]

Precision Today recommends that after the sequence: 1C (16+) - 2NT (14+, balanced, slam interest, forcing to 4NT)
the Baron convention should be used.

It outlines the idea as saying that with a 5-card suit, opener can just bid it directly at the 3-level (with 3NT showing 5 clubs). Alternatively, opener can bid 3C which conventionally asks partner to start bidding 4-card suits up the line.

Sounds simple, but there are a number of holes in this description, and I can't find any more detailed description than this on the web. Can someone please elaborate for me how this convention works? Here are some of my questions:

If opener has a 5-card suit and a 4-card suit, should they bid the 5-card suit directly with the hope they can bid the 4-card suit later, or do they bid 3C Baron hoping that if partner bypasses their 5-card suit, they will later bid it? In other words, does initiating Baron deny a 5-card suit or not?
How do you show 4 clubs when bidding up the line: 3NT or 4C?
When you run out of 4-card suits to bid, what do you bid?
It seems quite possible that if no fit is found, you'd want to bid 4NT naturally, so is 4NT blackwood or not. If not, how do you explore slam? If yes, how do you sign off in game with no fit?

Alternatively, if you think Precision Today's Baron recommendation over 1C-2NT is a bad idea, please describe your alternative.

Thanks!

[bluenikki]

♣♣

 enigmisto, on 2022-June-01, 20:26, said:

Precision Today recommends that after the sequence: 1C (16+) - 2NT (14+, balanced, slam interest, forcing to 4NT)
the Baron convention should be used.

It outlines the idea as saying that with a 5-card suit, opener can just bid it directly at the 3-level (with 3NT showing 5 clubs). Alternatively, opener can bid 3C which conventionally asks partner to start bidding 4-card suits up the line.

Sounds simple, but there are a number of holes in this description, and I can't find any more detailed description than this on the web. Can someone please elaborate for me how this convention works? Here are some of my questions:

If opener has a 5-card suit and a 4-card suit, should they bid the 5-card suit directly with the hope they can bid the 4-card suit later, or do they bid 3C Baron hoping that if partner bypasses their 5-card suit, they will later bid it? In other words, does initiating Baron deny a 5-card suit or not?
How do you show 4 clubs when bidding up the line: 3NT or 4C?
When you run out of 4-card suits to bid, what do you bid?
It seems quite possible that if no fit is found, you'd want to bid 4NT naturally, so is 4NT blackwood or not. If not, how do you explore slam? If yes, how do you sign off in game with no fit?

Alternatively, if you think Precision Today's Baron recommendation over 1C-2NT is a bad idea, please describe your alternative.

Thanks!

I don't know how Precisioneers do it, but here is the scheme George Rosenkranz published 50 years ago. Actually, these auctions assumed that it was already known that the partnership held at least 10 control points; that is, it was missing at most an ace or two kings. I'll say more about that at the end.

Opener replies to 2NT by bidding the first suit Qxxx or better. 3NT would deny any suit as good as Qxxx.

Suppose opener has bid a suit. If responder has Qxxx or better in the suit opener named, they single raise with one top honor, jump raise with two tops. Otherwise, they bid the cheapest Qxxx or better at the three level. To be bid at the four level, a suit must be playable at slam opposite a weaker holding than Qxxx, because opener has denied such a suit. So Qxxxx, AKQx, or better. Responder's 3NT denies such a suit.

If opener bids 3NT, denying Qxxx in any suit, responder bids a suit Qxxxx, AKQx, or better. Otherwise bids some number of notrump: No slam-suitable suit fit exists.. So far, so good.

Thereafter, suits are bid where a slam-suitable fit has not yet been denied. All suit bids below slam are forcing. Here is an example:

1♣ - 2NT ; 3♦ - 3♥ - ? Opener has denied Hxxx in clubs, shown Hxxx in diamonds. Responder has denied Hxxx in diamonds, shown Hxxx in hearts.

If opener has Hxxx in hearts they must raise hearts, jumping with two tops. Failing that, they show Hxxx in spades if possible. And then it gets interesting.

Responder has not denied AKQx or Hxxxx in clubs. So opener's next priority is showing a possible slam-suitable club fit, even though they do not have Hxxx. So 4♣ shows xxxx or HHX or better.

Likewise, responder has denied Hxxx in diamonds, but not xxxx or HHx. So opener's next priority is bidding 4♦ if a diamond slam is not yet excluded: Hxxxx or AKQx or better.

Failing that, opener bids some number of notrump.

Here is another example illustrating an important point.

1♣ - 2NT ; 3♥ - 4♥ ; ?

Hearts have not been "agreed"! Responder has only one top honor. If opener likewise has just one, you are probably *not* going to play in hearts. Suppose opener has

♠ AQxx
♥ Kxxx
♦ Ax
♣ Kxx

And responder

♠ Kxxx
♥ AJxx
♦ KQJx
♣ x

Opener's ♥ bid was forced, not an expression of opinion.

So in the auction above, opener raises hearts with two top honors, forcing if below slam. Otherwise, they bid spades with Hxxx or better (responder has denied *nothing* other than a second high heart honor.). Otherwise, holding a minor, they should tend not to show it at the five-level unless HHxx or better or unless sure of slam values. Otherwise, bid some number of notrump.

Back to responder. They should single-raise spades with just one top honor (forcing!) and jump raising with two. If opener has bid a minor, they raise to six with Hxxx or better. Those are the priorities. Failing those, responder should show a minor with HHxx or better (forcing!) or bid 5♥ (forcing!) with something like HJ9xx or better, playable at slam opposite Hxxx. Otherwise bid some number of notrump, nonforcing.

Once you understand the priority principles, these auctions are easy at the table.

But you may have noticed that you are going to slam whenever you have a suit fit of at least 8 including AKQ. So you'd better not be missing an ace and a king or three kings.

One way around this is for opener's suits at the three-level to count control points with 3♣ showing three-or-fewer.

A better was is for 2♠ to show the 14+ hand. Opener bids 2NT to ask for responder's control points. Opener's suit bid at the three-level cancels the action, showing a hand with a 6-card suit or some 5-5.

Responder in turn should should not begin this structure holding a 6-card or two 5-cards. In my opinion, you should xxxxxx as 5-card and xxxxx as 4-card.

Carl

[straube]

1C-2N is just too high for bal 14+. Meckwell uses 1C-2H for the same and that leaves a lot more room.

Or you can use SMP (Standard Modern Precision) which uses 1C-1N as bal 12+. If you want to play a Precision system (and not relay) I recommend you ditch Precision Today in favor of Dan's book.

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1771401796

[enigmisto]

 straube, on 2022-June-02, 21:44, said:

1C-2N is just too high for bal 14+. Meckwell uses 1C-2H for the same and that leaves a lot more room.

Or you can use SMP (Standard Modern Precision) which uses 1C-1N as bal 12+. If you want to play a Precision system (and not relay) I recommend you ditch Precision Today in favor of Dan's book.

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1771401796

I have Dan's book. I bought a half-dozen Precision books, and found Standard Modern Precision to be one of the more complex ones. I appreciate your recommendation, and will consider it. It's good to know that the extra complexity pays off.

[straube]

 enigmisto, on 2022-June-03, 01:22, said:

I have Dan's book. I bought a half-dozen Precision books, and found Standard Modern Precision to be one of the more complex ones. I appreciate your recommendation, and will consider it. It's good to know that the extra complexity pays off.

In the long run, you'll save yourself lots and lots of rework.

[steve2005]

 straube, on 2022-June-02, 21:44, said:

1C-2N is just too high for bal 14+. Meckwell uses 1C-2H for the same and that leaves a lot more room.

Have to disagree that 2NT is too high.
Given the premise that you are forced to 4NT you have 2 levels of bidding to sort things out.
Not saying your bidding wouldn't be improved by starting lower.
but those lower bids could possibly be put to better use than 14+ balanced

[enigmisto]

 straube, on 2022-June-03, 08:09, said:

In the long run, you'll save yourself lots and lots of rework.

Is there any sort of community for discussing/mentoring SMP, similar to the one that exists for Oliver Clarke's flavor of Precision?

[straube]

 enigmisto, on 2022-June-03, 18:42, said:

Is there any sort of community for discussing/mentoring SMP, similar to the one that exists for Oliver Clarke's flavor of Precision?

I've heard that a lot of people play it but I'm not aware of a forum for discussing/mentoring. You might ask Dan whose bbo username is djneill. I think Atul is also familiar with it; his username is foobar. Both post here on occasion.

[johnu]

 bluenikki, on 2022-June-02, 06:41, said:

♣♣

I don't know how Precisioneers do it, but here is the scheme George Rosenkranz published 50 years ago. Actually, these auctions assumed that it was already known that the partnership held at least 10 control points; that is, it was missing at most an ace or two kings. I'll say more about that at the end.

.....

More detail about Rosenkranz's ideas.

Rosenkranz wrote a series of articles for the Bridge World in 1974-75 where he outlined his ideas. He called the convention CONFI where the combined balanced/semi-balanced hands had 10+ controls (Ace = 2, King = 1) and the bidding goal was a small slam, and SUPERCONFI where the combined hands had all 12 controls and the goal was a grand slam. The first bid in the sequence asked for controls (# controls for the 1st step varied based on the HCP range of partner. If the partnership lacked the necessary controls, the asking partner signed of in NT (6NT for SUPERCONFI).

The goal was to find a good 4-4 (or better) suit fit when the partnership HCP was at the minimum end for a slam (e.g. 31 HCP). Once the partnership got up to around 33+ HCP, the chances of an additional trick from a suit fit was outweighed by a bad trump split or defenders getting a ruff before declarer could draw trump.

[bluenikki]

 johnu, on 2022-June-04, 19:03, said:

More detail about Rosenkranz's ideas.

Rosenkranz wrote a series of articles for the Bridge World in 1974-75 where he outlined his ideas. He called the convention CONFI where the combined balanced/semi-balanced hands had 10+ controls (Ace = 2, King = 1) and the bidding goal was a small slam, and SUPERCONFI where the combined hands had all 12 controls and the goal was a grand slam. The first bid in the sequence asked for controls (# controls for the 1st step varied based on the HCP range of partner. If the partnership lacked the necessary controls, the asking partner signed of in NT (6NT for SUPERCONFI).

The goal was to find a good 4-4 (or better) suit fit when the partnership HCP was at the minimum end for a slam (e.g. 31 HCP). Once the partnership got up to around 33+ HCP, the chances of an additional trick from a suit fit was outweighed by a bad trump split or defenders getting a ruff before declarer could draw trump.

His 1975 book "Win with Romex: the key to accurate bidding" covers it in detail.

[blackshoe]

I would note that Rosenkranz later dropped CONFIT from the system.

[mycroft]

For straight up OP (Precision today, 1♣-2NT; 3♣ Baron), it works pretty simply:

Bid your 4-card suit up the line, 3NT shows 3=3=3=4. Partner with a fit raises; without a fit bids their cheapest 4-card suit (again, 3NT is clubs). Responder continues like opener.

But what about 1♣-2NT; 3♣-3♥; 4♥? Isn't that scary? No, because *4♥ is forcing* (Note: 3NT is *also forcing*, especially as it tends to show clubs). Remember, 2NT forces to 4NT. This (among other reasons, like 1♣-2NT: 3♥-4♥) is why. What's scary is trying to figure out how to stop in 5♥ (and 4NT) if you need to, frankly.

Of course, 1♣-2NT came up three times in 15000 hands; and I don't remember any 3♣ continuation. So it's one of those "as long as you survive, that's good enough, until you fix the more important/common stuff" auctions.

[bluenikki]

 mycroft, on 2022-June-07, 10:15, said:

For straight up OP (Precision today, 1♣-2NT; 3♣ Baron), it works pretty simply:

Bid your 4-card suit up the line, 3NT shows 3=3=3=4. Partner with a fit raises; without a fit bids their cheapest 4-card suit (again, 3NT is clubs). Responder continues like opener.

But what about 1♣-2NT; 3♣-3♥; 4♥? Isn't that scary? No, because *4♥ is forcing* (Note: 3NT is *also forcing*, especially as it tends to show clubs). Remember, 2NT forces to 4NT. This (among other reasons, like 1♣-2NT: 3♥-4♥) is why. What's scary is trying to figure out how to stop in 5♥ (and 4NT) if you need to, frankly.

Of course, 1♣-2NT came up three times in 15000 hands; and I don't remember any 3♣ continuation. So it's one of those "as long as you survive, that's good enough, until you fix the more important/common stuff" auctions.

If you are going to play this, you must be willing to stop in FIVE notrump.

[bluenikki]

 blackshoe, on 2022-June-07, 09:26, said:

I would note that Rosenkranz later dropped CONFIT from the system.

True. I asked him why, but I didn't understand his answer.

For almost 20 years, my wife and I played 2NT response to any opening of a suit to show 16+ with no 6-card suit or 5-5. Opener responded control points, sort of. For example, 3♥ showed either 4 control points with no singleton or 5 with some singleton. Responder replied artificially in the next suit to confirm at least 10 control points in the partnership. After slam authorization, the auction proceeded as CONFI. (We gave no special status to the suit opened. It might contain no top honor, after all.)

It worked wonderfully and easily when it came up. When was the last time you reached a winning slam in a 4-3?

Carl

[Gilithin]

You can find details on the Baron 3♣ convention in many Acol resources for bidding after a 2NT opening. Really it just means that both players bid 4 card suits up the line until either 3NT is reached or a fit is found. A slightly more refined version is to play Skip Baron, in which Responder bids the cheapest 4 card suit that they do not hold and Opener bids suits they do hold, again up to 3NT. That avoids one of the biggest drawbacks of Baron - wrongsiding.

Typically there is a corrollary that bidding a new suit at the 4 level is a slam try agreeing the last suit shown. If playing Skip Baron, this changes to a major suit shown for cases where Responder showed 2 or more suits: 1♣ (Precision) - 2NT (nat) -- 3♣ (Baron) - 3♠ (4♦+4♥) -- 4♣ (slam try agreeing ♥). You do not have to play it that way though - as long as you agree what any unusual calls mean you cannot really go wrong in this type of 4 card up-the-line method.

[mycroft]

I have 16+ (and usually in this auction, I'm balanced, so 17+). Partner has 14+, with a minimum control count (can't remember what it was for 2NT). Sure, I'm willing to stop in 5NT, if I can figure out how. But it's almost certainly because the points we're missing are A, A.

I do like the idea that 4-level bids are controls, agreeing the last bid suit. Fits with my standard "there are no new suits at the 4 level" meta-agreement (obvious exceptions are obvious. If they're not obvious, they're not an exception - find a different bid). Didn't know it at the time. See above for how much it would have mattered.