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Missed game

#1 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-June-25, 20:14



1 shows 4+, not 4, 10-15

3 made 10 tricks, losing a trump, A and a club ruff.
+620 at the other table.

As East, I didn't feel like bidding 3 or 3 (which?) first time with soft values and J-x-x.
When the raise came, the belated 3 was more attractive. Not match points, so this is invitational, not competitive. Yes?

Partner passed, though I think she would have bid game with spades and diamonds swapped.
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#2 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 00:41

As West I'm bidding 4 with that playing strength assuming 2 shows enough to be at the 3-level with a fit. Also I'd X rather than bid 2
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#3 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 01:06

Not sure whether this was pairs or IMPs? I don't play your system, but play Acol which has 4cM. In the nearest equivalent auction 1!S (2!H) ?, I think I'd stretch to 3!S on the East hand, certainly at IMPs. Two reasons:

1. We have a bid available to show a sounder raise (2NT)
2. My partner doesn't like those "bid two then bid three" auctions, so I try not to raise his blood pressure...
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#4 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 01:22

View Postpilun, on 2022-June-25, 20:14, said:

As East, I didn't feel like bidding 3 or 3 (which?) first time with soft values and J-x-x.
When the raise came, the belated 3 was more attractive. Not match points, so this is invitational, not competitive. Yes?

I don't think 3S can be invitational - you already made that decision a round earlier. I don't remember Scamp well enough, but if West has a game-try double then 3S is clearly just competitive. Even without it, trying to show a hand that doesn't fit into the range you initially showed is asking a lot from partner. Once you choose to go low with 2S there doesn't seem to be a sensible route to game.
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#5 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 05:38

Edit: I missed the fact that 1 showed spades, not diamonds. That'll teach me to read first, talk later.

What would 2NT have been over 2? If that shows a sound raise to 3 you'll have more room to explore opener's pattern or strength. Maybe opener could then have doubled their 3 to show a maximum with shortness (so that East can upgrade the Jxx - almost no wasted values). If 2 is a wide-ranging nuisance bid I think you are just fixed by the system.

The standard auction 1 (natural) - (2) - X - (3); 3 (if this is invitationa, a game try double instead if it is not)-(P)-4 looks normal to me so I think you just have a system disadvantage here.
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#6 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 10:22

I think west can dbl to invite game
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#7 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-June-26, 17:28

Looks like your pair uses the minimalist bidding system where you only make the minimum bids instead of showing values. 2 is a huge underbid with 4 trumps, a singleton, and a good 5 card suit as a source of tricks. I would rather bid 4 than bid 2 Passing 2 is another huge underbid with 3 aces, a singleton in opponents suit, and a system maximum. Passing 3 is consistent with passing 2.

I can't blame anybody for missing game because you followed the system.
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#8 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-June-27, 02:49

Looks like I underbid as East, vul at IMPs.

In my defence, it's worth noting that West would have an automatic 1 opening with

Axxx Qxx KQxx xx,

when 2 is a trick too high. Admittedly, that's a particularly dreadful hand to find opposite.

Still not sure whether 3 or 3 is right. It would be good to have a mixed raise available, such as the suggested 2NT.
That would be ideal.
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#9 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-04, 14:41

View Postpilun, on 2022-June-27, 02:49, said:

Looks like I underbid as East, vul at IMPs.

In my defence, it's worth noting that West would have an automatic 1 opening with

Axxx Qxx KQxx xx,

when 2 is a trick too high. Admittedly, that's a particularly dreadful hand to find opposite.

Still not sure whether 3 or 3 is right. It would be good to have a mixed raise available, such as the suggested 2NT.
That would be ideal.


An automatic 1 on a flat, almost 8 loser 11 count? I think that might be one issue. If responder errs on the passive side in the bidding because they are afraid they'll find partner with a sub-minimum opener like that, the risk of missing games when opener holds full values is increased.
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#10 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2022-July-04, 16:08

View PostAL78, on 2022-July-04, 14:41, said:

An automatic 1 on a flat, almost 8 loser 11 count? I think that might be one issue. If responder errs on the passive side in the bidding because they are afraid they'll find partner with a sub-minimum opener like that, the risk of missing games when opener holds full values is increased.

It's worth noting that the original poster is playing a strong club system with light openings. 1D shows 10-15 with 4+ spades and denies 4+ hearts. The hand you are objecting to is not even a minimum in their system.
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2022-July-04, 19:45

View Postsfi, on 2022-July-04, 16:08, said:

It's worth noting that the original poster is playing a strong club system with light openings. 1D shows 10-15 with 4+ spades and denies 4+ hearts. The hand you are objecting to is not even a minimum in their system.

But that just means that opener must treat this hand as a super tippy-top hand.

No matter what counting highcard points says.
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#12 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-July-04, 19:59

View Postbluenikki, on 2022-July-04, 19:45, said:

But that just means that opener must treat this hand as a super tippy-top hand.

No matter what counting highcard points says.

Which is why opener would have bid game had East made any attempt at a game try.
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#13 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-July-07, 13:17

View Postpilun, on 2022-June-25, 20:14, said:



1 shows 4+, not 4, 10-15

3 made 10 tricks, losing a trump, A and a club ruff.
+620 at the other table.

As East, I didn't feel like bidding 3 or 3 (which?) first time with soft values and J-x-x.
When the raise came, the belated 3 was more attractive. Not match points, so this is invitational, not competitive. Yes?

Partner passed, though I think she would have bid game with spades and diamonds swapped.


IMO, you are beating yourself up too much about this hand. In a standard system, it's easy to imagine a stop in 3 after 1 - (2) - X - (3) - X (or 3). East may choose to bid on, but opener might very easily hold Axxx A KQJxx xxx and bid the same way.
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#14 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2022-July-09, 11:46

It's one of those hands where both partners are happy to accept an invite but none has enough to invite (in the context of your system). If you interchange Q and J your West would have had an invite while standard might have missed the game.
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