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Raising clubs opposite short club opening

#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 11:23

I play 5 card majors, strong NT and 1 opening could be as short as two cards with one of my partners. When 1 is opened, her philosophy is to treat it as artificial, and responding 2 is a 2/1 response showing 10+ HCP with a club suit (i.e. same as if the opening bid had been 1//). I've always considered treating it as natural since the majority of the time it is a real suit. Does anyone else take the same approach as my partner?
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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 11:30

I play it as 5(+) clubs, 10+ HCP, inverted minor. The rest of my bidding system is sufficiently different that I'm not sure how helpful this is. You need a good place to park balanced hands with only 4 clubs (3=3=3=4 11+ is a killer).
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#3 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 12:01

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-July-01, 11:30, said:

I play it as 5(+) clubs, 10+ HCP, inverted minor. The rest of my bidding system is sufficiently different that I'm not sure how helpful this is. You need a good place to park balanced hands with only 4 clubs (3=3=3=4 11+ is a killer).


The idea is with a balanced 6-9 HCP and 3334 shape, bid 1NT. With that shape and 10-12 HCP, bid 2NT. With 13-15 HCP, bid 3NT. That is what I think she would do.

This is the hand where it came up:



The defence cashed their spade and switched to a diamond. I took both red suit finesses and went one down, although there is a way to make, looking at it maybe a strip squeeze on East, but why would I play to squeeze East when West is the one overcalling?
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#4 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 12:43

I don't see the problem. NS can be proud of reaching 5, especially with an overcall by West.
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#5 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 12:57

I play the 1C opening can be on 2+.

In one partnership, we play inverted minors, so 2C is limit or better with 5+ clubs and a complex rebid structure

In the other we recently switched from that to a simple inverted, because the club fit is rarely great and the complex structure rarely shows gain

We open most 11 counts and our 1N is (in one always and in the other sometimes) 14-16. (When it’s not, it’s 11-13)

Therefore we play 1C 1N as 9-11. 1C 2H is 11-13 balanced, no major. 1C 2N is 13-15 or 18+

The overlap is not a mistake. 11 counts are not created equal, nor are 13 counts. So some 11 counts respond 1N and some 2H, etc


Incidentally when 1C 1N is in a 11-13 1N seat, we play 1N as forcing! If opener is balanced he has 14+ so we may have game, and will,almost always be safe in 2N when both are minimum. If opener is unbalanced, then he won’t want to play 1N anyway.

If you play 15-17 1N then my advice is not to open balanced 11 counts, since 1C 1x 1N is now 11-14, which is, imo, too wide a range.

But returning to the OP, it’s not that one treats the 2C response as a new suit…it’s just that we don’t raise without 5, and by requiring 10+ points you are in fact playing inverted minors in the club suit (what’s 1C 3C for you?)

Finally, there’s no strip squeeze on the 5C hand. After they take a spade and switch to diamonds: if you play the ace, east keeps Kx of diamonds and exits a diamond if you throw him in. And if you hook at trick 2, he wins and plays anything but a heart.

Your line was fine. So you went down….who cares? Never let the result dictate how you think you should have played the hand. I’ve gone down on hands where I was proud of my line even when it failed…if it was the best line, that’s what matters. In the long run, the best lines out score the inferior lines.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 13:39

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-July-01, 12:43, said:

I don't see the problem. NS can be proud of reaching 5, especially with an overcall by West.


There was no problem on the hand itself, we got into the best contract, just unlucky to go off. I was asking whether the way my partner bids opposite a short 1C is done elsewhere as the way she described it, I hadn't heard of it before, but as some have said, it is effectively an inverted minor in the club suit guarenteeing five card support. 1 - 3 would be at least five and weak.
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#7 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 13:46

View Postmikeh, on 2022-July-01, 12:57, said:

Finally, there’s no strip squeeze on the 5C hand. After they take a spade and switch to diamonds: if you play the ace, east keeps Kx of diamonds and exits a diamond if you throw him in. And if you hook at trick 2, he wins and plays anything but a heart.


I think there is double dummy. Win the diamond return, ruff a spade, then run five clubs. East comes down to - Q65 KT - before the last club is played. If East throws a heart, the queen drops. If East throws a diamond, a diamond exit endplays East.
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#8 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 14:05

View PostAL78, on 2022-July-01, 13:46, said:

I think there is double dummy. Win the diamond return, ruff a spade, then run five clubs. East comes down to - Q65 KT - before the last club is played. If East throws a heart, the queen drops. If East throws a diamond, a diamond exit endplays East.

After one spade, one diamond, one spade ruff you run your remaining clubs. That gets you to having played to 8 tricks. You have void Kxx xx void. Dummy has void AJx QJ void. Rho has void Qxx Kx void

Good luck.

You have to learn how to keep track of how many tricks have been played in order to arrive at an end position. You can’t ruff a spade with your 6 card club suit and then run 6 clubs…you only have 5 left.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 14:09

View PostAL78, on 2022-July-01, 13:46, said:

I think there is double dummy. Win the diamond return, ruff a spade, then run five clubs. East comes down to - Q65 KT - before the last club is played. If East throws a heart, the queen drops. If East throws a diamond, a diamond exit endplays East.


Double dummy it's easy, you table J and finesse the 9 on the way back if covered, single dummy you're not making this
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#10 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 14:10

View PostAL78, on 2022-July-01, 13:46, said:

East comes down to - Q65 KT - before the last club is played. If East throws a heart, the queen drops.


East comes down to that *after* the club is played. The reason you can make double dummy is that you can lead the jack of hearts, then finesse the 9 on the way back.
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-July-01, 14:18

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-July-01, 14:10, said:

East comes down to that *after* the club is played. The reason you can make double dummy is that you can lead the jack of hearts, then finesse the 9 on the way back.


Oh sorry, I have miscounted the discards.
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