[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

in the B/I section:

With the first hand 1D followed by 3D.

This seq. showes 6+ diamonds and 15-18 HCP, no 4 card side suit, which looks spot on.

With the second hand 1NT and Pass.

This seq. showes 15-17 and a balanced hand, without a 5 card major (or not), which again
looks spot on.
5332 with a 5 card minor is part of the description.

If you open 1NT you told your story, you only bid, if partner forces you to bid.
If they bid your doubleton and you are in pass out, and the auction reaches you at the 2 level,
a reopening X becomes an option, but this is no longer B/I stuff, first they should learn,
that they dont tell the same story twice.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-March-23, 10:12, said:

Yes, remember we are playing with beginning players. If they open this hand 1D and get any interference I think their next bid may be 2D.

I am much more positive than Davidkok about the opportunity of opening many 6m332 as "balanced", but this one is too strong for 1NT.
And I agree with him about the fundamental importance of teaching hand evaluation.
It should open IMO 1♦ and if they fail to handle the interference and things go pear shaped they will hopefully notice, that will be a useful follow up lesson.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-March-23, 11:12, said:

What is your style here? (playing std, no txfer over 1C etc)
Open 1nt and rebid 3♣ over a 2♥ bid by East?
Open 1♣ and repeat clubs?
Something more intelligent?

---

I hate "reopening" threads, the original was already interesting and it cost nothing to open a new one.
That aside, it seems an obvious 1NT and then listen to partner... if she passes I see no reason to bid.

[thepossum]

Sometimes I will open 1nt and sometimes 1d. Depends how I am feeling.

[mikeh]

I have a partner who likes to bid (some) 6322, with a 6 card minor) by starting with 1N. Personally, I think that it is a horrible action, possibly justified if one has something like Kx AQx Jxxxxx AQ, where the alternatives are even worse.

I fully understand that newer players struggle with 1D 1X 3D…now what? But it’s a mistake, imo, to teach them that the ‘answer’ is to open 1N! If they ever improve (being taught very poor methods early on is usually a barrier to improving, btw) they will have to unlearn this approach and start all over again learning how to bid these hands more accurately.

Why do I hate opening 1N on 6322? It has nothing…nothing at all….to do with any ‘rule’ against having two doubletons.

Give me 2=4=5=2 16 and wtf does one do other than open 1N? Too weak to reverse (if you’d reverse, make it 15), too strong for a 1N rebid over the easy to anticipate 1S response and so on. The usual process of elimination makes 1N the least bad call.

No…I hate 6322 1N because….drumroll please….we may belong in our 6 card suit. Believe it or not, lots of very good players have done very well playing in minor suit contracts. Why, some of them bid and make slams, especially once their partner realizes that Kxx or even Kx is great support.

Put another way….one can often get back into notrump, when it’s right, after showing a strong hand with 6 diamonds but it’s almost impossible (absent some bizarre treatments) to get back into the minor after opening 1N.

Yes, opening 1N will seem easier for non expert players but if such ever want to actually become good at this game, they need to avoid ‘simple’ but inherently flawed ideas like this one. /rant

[jillybean]

Not all players are going to progress to becoming International players, or even A players. The majority of players are content playing in club or non sanctioned games.
I think these players are better getting to a cold 3NT+3 rather than languishing in 3 or 4 of a minor. The 1nt start makes for an easy auction which is good for a newer player who is often playing with another newer player or a pickup partner.
For those interested in why they missed the slam, they will start asking questions and these players are easily identified.

A great deal of what is taught to new players they must unlearn to progress the game. I don't think it's awful to suggest players open these hands 1nt, with the what should be, ever present provision of what we are teaching you is to get you started, as you get more proficient, this will change.

[thepossum]

Dare I suggest if I bid 1D because it was too strong for 1NT I have no problem bidding 2 next time
Isn't that the wonderful simplicity of NT bidding
If it's too weak for 1nt you bid diamonds and then bid 1nt next time
Isn't it that simple

Before anyone comments I dislike the obsession with NT which excludes interesting options in minors

[DavidKok]

mikeh, on 2024-March-23, 18:33, said:

Give me 2=4=5=2 16 and wtf does one do other than open 1N? Too weak to reverse (if you’d reverse, make it 15), too strong for a 1N rebid over the easy to anticipate 1S response and so on. The usual process of elimination makes 1N the least bad call.

I agree with everything you said but wanted to add that even this can be addressed. In my unbalanced diamond structure there's plenty of space to show this hand (1♦-1♠; 2♦ shows 11-15 with 5(+)♦, 4♥ and at most two spades - 16+ goes via an artificial 1NT rebid). Depending on the texture opening 1NT anyway might be preferable, but at least there's no rebid issues over 1♦.


And I just realised which forum this was in. My bad.