[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-February-15, 12:57, said:

This has given me more to think about. SJS's are off my radar and I'm sure I would have rolled any SJS into my reverse, which I play as 18
MikeH style https://www.bridgeba...everse-bidding/

We are really getting down to the nitty gritty between reverse, 2N, 2C and 2N rebids. I also have to consider what my 10-13, 12-14 nt openings to do this ladder.
Perhaps a good time for a discussion of the NT ladder.

It sounds to me like you might do well to fix on a strong NT and sort out the basics of reverse, SJS and so on before reconsidering them in the light of other NT ranges.
One of my pet hates is people rolling multiple situations of strength into a generic "reverse"
I had to start again from scratch to get out of that particular rut.

Having said that, I agree with Stephen_Tu (of course) that this natural SJS should be game forcing and that East needs some convention to express disinterest in slam opposite 3♥. We would bid 3♠ as (inverted) Non-serious after which 4♥ is sensible and signoff.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2025-February-15, 12:57, said:

This has given me more to think about. SJS's are off my radar and I'm sure I would have rolled any SJS into my reverse, which I play as 18
MikeH style https://www.bridgeba...everse-bidding/

I'm just nitpicking about terminology but I think of a "strong jump shift" as something the responder does, e.g., 1♦-2♠, as opposed to opener's jump shift, which is what's being discussed in the context of this hand. (Strong jump shifts have fallen out of fashion, with more people playing weak or intermediate (aka invitational) jump shifts.)

"SJS" can also refer to Soloway Jump Shifts, which I like but which are a bit memory-intensive. I'm pretty sure GIB plays Soloway Jump Shifts.

FWIW, I agree with everything Stephen said above about how opener jump shifts are normally played, at least as I was taught.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2025-February-15, 16:19, said:

It sounds to me like you might do well to fix on a strong NT and sort out the basics of reverse, SJS and so on before reconsidering them in the light of other NT ranges.
One of my pet hates is people rolling multiple situations of strength into a generic "reverse"
I had to start again from scratch to get out of that particular rut.

Having said that, I agree with Stephen_Tu (of course) that this natural SJS should be game forcing and that East needs some convention to express disinterest in slam opposite 3♥. We would bid 3♠ as (inverted) Non-serious after which 4♥ is sensible and signoff.

I think my strong nt ship has sailed, other than with PU partners, in which case reverses, SJS etc are barely getting a mention.

[mw64ahw]

jdiana, on 2025-February-15, 19:08, said:

I'm just nitpicking about terminology but I think of a "strong jump shift" as something the responder does, e.g., 1♦-2♠, as opposed to opener's jump shift, which is what's being discussed in the context of this hand. (Strong jump shifts have fallen out of fashion, with more people playing weak or intermediate (aka invitational) jump shifts.)

"SJS" can also refer to Soloway Jump Shifts, which I like but which are a bit memory-intensive. I'm pretty sure GIB plays Soloway Jump Shifts.

FWIW, I agree with everything Stephen said above about how opener jump shifts are normally played, at least as I was taught.

I was taught originally that SJSs came on opener's 2nd bid after 1M given that responder had a 2/1 to force game. Nowadays artificiality has removed the need. My 1♦ -2♠ is a weak Weak2, but have played as strong in the past.

[johnu]

jdiana, on 2025-February-15, 19:08, said:

"SJS" can also refer to Soloway Jump Shifts, which I like but which are a bit memory-intensive. I'm pretty sure GIB plays Soloway Jump Shifts.

Nice, SJS does dual duty as Strong Jump Shifts and as Soloway Jump Shifts.

If you play strong jump shifts, then I highly recommend playing the Soloway versions. The clarification it gives to the types of hands you might jump shift on makes the relatively small effort to learn the continuations well worth while.

[johnu]

mw64ahw, on 2025-February-16, 00:55, said:

I was taught originally that SJSs came on opener's 2nd bid after 1M given that responder had a 2/1 to force game. Nowadays artificiality has removed the need. My 1♦ -2♠ is a weak Weak2, but have played as strong in the past.

AFAIK, since pretty much the beginning of bridge, strong jump shifts have referred to either responder's single jump in a new suit, or opener's single jump in a new suit, and they were strong, so strong jump shifts is what they were called.

Opener's strong jump shifts used to be in effect after any 1 of a suit opening, and responder's non raise response, except when a non-jump reverse bid was available.

For 2/1 players, opener's jump wasn't needed to force to game, so I think most players use a jump shift over a 2 level response as a splinter bid.

After a 1NT response, some players use Gazzilli which uses a 2♣ rebid as an artificial strong rebid.

After a 1 of a suit response (or 1NT for those who don't play something like Gazzilli), opener shows a strong hand with some sort of raise, or a reverse or strong jump shift as the case may be.

[mw64ahw]

johnu, on 2025-February-16, 02:13, said:

For 2/1 players, opener's jump wasn't needed to force to game, so I think most players use a jump shift over a 2 level response as a splinter bid.

I should have written Standard American, but how do you force without gizzmos? For example how do you force with 5♠4♥; 1♠-1N-2♥ isn't forcing?

I'm quite partial to a transfer approach over 1♠ as 2N can replace the jump shift.

[johnu]

mw64ahw, on 2025-February-16, 03:46, said:

I should have written Standard American, but how do you force without gizzmos? For example how do you force with 5♠4♥; 1♠-1N-2♥ isn't forcing?

Standard bidding is to jump shift to 3♥ which is absolutely forcing. 2♥ is definitely not forcing.

[pescetom]

 mw64ahw, on 2025-February-16, 03:46, said:

I should have written Standard American, but how do you force without gizzmos? For example how do you force with 5♠4♥; 1♠-1N-2♥ isn't forcing?

It's not forcing, but unlikely to be passed, with such a wide range, a potential hearts fit, two suits stopped in any case and opponents silent.

What is questionable is whether the jump shift alternative should force to game, as most of us play (barring Gazzilli) these days. That keeps things simple and avoids a gizzmo like you need after a reverse, but can leave Responder with an awkward choice of bids.

[jdiana]

johnu, on 2025-February-16, 02:13, said:

AFAIK, since pretty much the beginning of bridge, strong jump shifts have referred to either responder's single jump in a new suit, or opener's single jump in a new suit, and they were strong, so strong jump shifts is what they were called.

Interesting. Maybe usage has changed over time, or maybe there are regional differences. I learned "opener jump shifts" (with the "strong" being implied) and "strong jump shifts" as separate things.

Apologies, everyone, for going off on a tangent!