[Knurdler]

We play 15-17. At our club most couples revert to natural after any interference.
I would like advice about improving our agreement. We do not want to learn lebensohl. What we do now:

If they double, we ignore it and all systems on (2C = stayman, 3C = 10 points, puppet).
Redouble by us is currently not used. Suggestions?

If they bid 2C: our double = stayman and all systems on. We are happy with this for now.
If they bid 2D: our double = transfer to hearts. 3C = puppet, other systems on.
Should 3C be stayman or puppet?

If they bid 2H or higher: our double = penalty. Cue bid = unassigned. Other bids = natural.
The penalty double never seems to arise, suggestions for a better use of the double?
After 2H interference, if responder has 4S how should we bid?
Suggestions for cue bid?

Tks

[smerriman]

 Knurdler, on 2025-March-28, 12:39, said:

I would like advice about improving our agreement. We do not want to learn lebensohl.

Out of interest, why not? It's not complicated, and is an improvement on what you're playing now. So not wanting to learn the most popular method seems contrary to wanting to improve what you're playing..

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2025-March-28, 13:15, said:

Out of interest, why not? It's not complicated, and is an improvement on what you're playing now. So not wanting to learn the most popular method seems contrary to wanting to improve what you're playing..

I would suggest learning Rubensohl, which is even less complicated and (IMO) slightly more effective.
But both leave "natural" (which is not even that simple for partner) dead on the ground.

[akwoo]

This is the Beginner forum. Lebensohl (or Rubensohl) *is* complicated, especially if you play at a club full of beginners who almost never interfere over your 1N so you never use it and can't remember it.

I would suggest that:
1) double is takeout, showing 0-2 of their suit, 3+ of every other suit, not enough values for game, enough values to compete.
2) cue bid is game forcing stayman, showing 4 in an unbid major, forcing to game.
3) everything else is natural - drop dead at the 2 level and forcing at the 3 level

[smerriman]

akwoo, on 2025-March-28, 13:45, said:

This is the Beginner forum. Lebensohl (or Rubensohl) *is* complicated, especially if you play at a club full of beginners who almost never interfere over your 1N so you never use it and can't remember it.

Such players aren't playing 3♣ puppet over 2♦ or looking to improve their system over interference. They're playing double = they took my bid and I don't know what else to do (and don't want to know), which is arguably harder to play than lebensohl.

Of course, if the answer to 'why not' is that OP is finding what they're playing currently too hard to remember, rather than wanting something that works better, then fair enough.

[helene_t]

After they double, you can play redbl as a weak hand with one minor. Opener must bid 2♣.

"Natural" at the 3-level needs clarification: is it forcing? If you don't play any Sohl you probably need to play it as nonforcing (if it's not a jump), then the stronger hands with a long minor can cuebid. You will need to play dbl as t/o for this to work (otherwise the cuebid becomes overloaded) but that's ok.

[mycroft]

I suggest "half-Lebensohl" or "Lebensohl without lebensohl" to newer players looking for something better than stolen bid (which against aggressive overcallers quickly becomes "stolen auction" as they overcall on anything):

• Double is whatever you're comfortable with (penalty or takeout; I like takeout, but you need an agreement on when opener doubles back in for "protection")
  
• 2 bids are to play
  
• 3 bids are game forcing
  
• cuebid is Stayman, GF.
  
• 2NT can be whatever you want (INV with a stopper seems fine), as can 3NT.

You'll see a couple of holes in this system; when you're comfortable with it enough, put in the forcing puppet 2NT call, and watch a lot of them go away.

Transfer Lebensohl/Rubensohl is good - if both players remember, which many who don't play it regularly don't - but using the extra bids it gives you, plus being on the same page about "transfer to cuebid" (do you skip the suit and the cuebid is Stayment, or is it Stayman and the cuebid is a transfer?) is extra memory load.

The issue with any of this, including what you play now, is artificial bids:

• Double can be whatever, whether it's natural or conventional. I passed partner's "one minor or both majors" double just this week.
  
• 2♣ - if it's natural, do you want to ignore it still? (I say yes, for ease of memory).
  
• 2♦ showing either hearts or spades, or transfer overcalls, or Asp(t)ro/Meckwell style "clubs and another"/"diamonds and a major" need discussion. But they needed discussion playing stolen bid, too (you currently play double of 2♦ as hearts. But what if my 2♦ is hearts? What if it's "hearts or spades"?)
  
• Every artificial system has a bid for "both majors". How many do we have to promise before it's not a suit for you?

and others. Bridge is Hard; make some rules and follow them, even when they're stupid; if they're stupid often enough, change the rules (at the coffee shop, not at the bridge table).

[P_Marlowe]

Knurdler, on 2025-March-28, 12:39, said:

We play 15-17. At our club most couples revert to natural after any interference.
I would like advice about improving our agreement. We do not want to learn lebensohl. What we do now:

If they double, we ignore it and all systems on (2C = stayman, 3C = 10 points, puppet).
Redouble by us is currently not used. Suggestions?
<snip>

Power, suggesting to go for blood.

What I dont understand, given the agreement you wrote, why dont you want to learn Lebensohl, this seems
to be a lot simpler, than what you currently play.

[pescetom]

akwoo, on 2025-March-28, 13:45, said:

This is the Beginner forum. Lebensohl (or Rubensohl) *is* complicated, especially if you play at a club full of beginners who almost never interfere over your 1N so you never use it and can't remember it.

I would suggest that:
1) double is takeout, showing 0-2 of their suit, 3+ of every other suit, not enough values for game, enough values to compete.
2) cue bid is game forcing stayman, showing 4 in an unbid major, forcing to game.
3) everything else is natural - drop dead at the 2 level and forcing at the 3 level

That treatment makes sense, but is not different in principle from Rubensohl or transfer Lebensohl, nor any simpler to learn or play.
It has the significant disadvantage of lacking the flexibility of transfers at 3 level.

I regularly mentor beginners and I am very wary about introducing inessential/difficult conventions, such as minor suit transfers or even Blackwood.
But I long ago learned that it was easier to explain Rubensohl than "natural" and that they see it pay dividends from the start.

Of course the devil is in the detail of any convention, including Rubensohl, as mycroft spells out here. But they can cheerfully not worry about the meaning of opponents' 2 in a minor (and not ask) and still do better than most of the club.

[bluenikki]

Knurdler, on 2025-March-28, 12:39, said:

We play 15-17. At our club most couples revert to natural after any interference.
I would like advice about improving our agreement. We do not want to learn lebensohl. What we do now:

If they double, we ignore it and all systems on (2C = stayman, 3C = 10 points, puppet).
Redouble by us is currently not used. Suggestions?

If they bid 2C: our double = stayman and all systems on. We are happy with this for now.
If they bid 2D: our double = transfer to hearts. 3C = puppet, other systems on.
Should 3C be stayman or puppet?

If they bid 2H or higher: our double = penalty. Cue bid = unassigned. Other bids = natural.
The penalty double never seems to arise, suggestions for a better use of the double?
After 2H interference, if responder has 4S how should we bid?
Suggestions for cue bid?

Tks

If 2♣ shows majors, does double still show majors? If 2♦ shows hearts, does double still show hearts?