[jillybean]

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You've opened your 18 count 1m, partner bids the Major that you have 4 card in.
In general, do you bid 2nt to show the 18 count, or some number of the major?

[DavidKok]

In the N/B forum the answer is 4♠. This tells partner our strength and confirms the fit. It doesn't tell partner what hand type we have - even if 4♦ and 4♥ are splinters, and 4♣ is 6(+)♣4♠ strong, we might still have a 4=2=2=5, a 4(31)5 type hand unsuitable for a splinter (with a singleton ace or king, for example) or even 4xx6 with the six card suit too weak for 4♣.

One of the ways to improve on standard systems is to have better approaches for these types of hands, saving space and clarifying hand type. In Dutch Doubleton the rebid is 2♦ (3-way), or when playing a simpler version, a game forcing 2NT (intending to show the support next round).

[pescetom]

I agree that 4♠ is fine for N/B and for Intermediate too. It's the way natural systems always worked and is one of the better uses for a space consuming jump. It does rule out control-bidding, but we are probably only worth game and RKCB is still available if really appropriate.

The downsides for Advanced/Expert are equally apparent, as Davidkok said one can do better. The traditional Italian solution is to bundle this hand with 4 card fit (assuming you still put 18-19 balanced through 1m 2NT in the first place) and other strong hands such as a single suiter or a 6+ with 3 or 4 card fit into the cheapest reverse. Then 2NT (or the cheaper of 2NT and 4th suit) is a positive relay asking Opener whether he has the hand he bid or one of the others. Unfortunately this does not fit well with the French Moderateur convention where 2NT is the negative relay for all reverses over a minor: I'm working on a version that unites both conventions (and might even find a partner willing to play).

[mw64ahw]

I bid 3♠ showing 18-19 balanced COG

[Huibertus]

jillybean, on 2025-October-12, 13:30, said:

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You've opened your 18 count 1m, partner bids the Major that you have 4 card in.
In general, do you bid 2nt to show the 18 count, or some number of the major?

In my partnerships I've always agreed 2NT is forcing. You bid it with and without a 4 card support for the major and can distinguish next round.

It releases the pressure on 3/4 of a major rebids allowing them to be used for unbalanced hands only. And you don't want to play 2NT anyway, it either is too high or it is too low.

[mike777]

4S is fine, perfectly fine

Next

[pescetom]

Huibertus, on 2025-October-12, 15:15, said:

In my partnerships I've always agreed 2NT is forcing. You bid it with and without a 4 card support for the major and can distinguish next round.

It releases the pressure on 3/4 of a major rebids allowing them to be used for unbalanced hands only. And you don't want to play 2NT anyway, it either is too high or it is too low.

I disagree at any level, FWIW.
2NT non forcing without support, 4♠ with support is fine for N/B: roll on the next of the thousand dilemmas for a beginner.

[akwoo]

Playing strong NT, I reluctantly bid 4♠, but playing 12-14 I get to bid 3♠.

This is one of the advantages of weak NT - your raise to 2♠ can't be on a balanced 12 with 4 card support, so the upper limit on that can be a little higher. (Note that an unbalanced 11 with 4 card support generally has more trick taking power than a balanced 12 with 4 card support.) In turn the whole range for 3♠ shifts a bit up.

[jillybean]

Mods, please move this thread to I/A

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 If you are in the upgrade / downgrade business, you could do it here and open 1NT.
The 4333 would be a valid reason.

#2 Either 3S or 4S is ok, you found a fit, you show the fit.
There are methods, that enable opener to show a (semi) bal. and a discovered 44
in a forcing manner, but they req. modification to the overall system.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2025-October-12, 15:33, said:

I disagree at any level, FWIW.
2NT non forcing without support, 4♠ with support is fine for N/B: roll on the next of the thousand dilemmas for a beginner.

I have played/play 2N as forcing with one of 3 hand types
a) strong ♣, 3♣ is IJO style
b) GF 4M not balanced
c) 6C3M
Now 3♣/3♦ depending on respondent's strength asks which?

[TMorris]

akwoo, on 2025-October-12, 18:52, said:

Playing strong NT, I reluctantly bid 4♠, but playing 12-14 I get to bid 3♠.

This is one of the advantages of weak NT - your raise to 2♠ can't be on a balanced 12 with 4 card support, so the upper limit on that can be a little higher. (Note that an unbalanced 11 with 4 card support generally has more trick taking power than a balanced 12 with 4 card support.) In turn the whole range for 3♠ shifts a bit up.

With a weak nt I open 1♠ as I play 4 card majors. Now any "problem" does not exist.

[AL78]

If it is a major fit support with support. I bid 3♠ invitational, the hand is too flat and there are too many losers to blast game opposite what could be a minimum.

[johnu]

Huibertus, on 2025-October-12, 15:15, said:

And you don't want to play 2NT anyway, it either is too high or it is too low.

So, if 2NT is too high, you are forcing to a higher level contract, even with say a doubleton spade? If 2NT is too low (2NT isn't signoff), partner can bid, and probably should bid over 2NT.

[Huibertus]

johnu, on 2025-October-13, 04:38, said:

So, if 2NT is too high, you are forcing to a higher level contract, even with say a doubleton spade? If 2NT is too low (2NT isn't signoff), partner can bid, and probably should bid over 2NT.

You misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm saying 2NT is not a contract you would ever want to play, IF you decide a forcing 2NT is the approach for you, that doesn't mean you're pushing higher. It means you must be aware you are going to end up in game once you bid 2NT and therefor need to have the values for it. So a natural non-forcing 2NT hand does not qualify for a forcing 2NT, you'd bid 1NT with it or some other non GF bid.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-October-12, 19:54, said:

Mods, please move this thread to I/A

Better to replicate it in I/A ("balanced 18 with fit: I/A") and then clean up the parts non pertinent to each forum.
The beginners already got the right reply first time: 4S.

[pescetom]

It's worthy of note that in my experience GiB hedges bets here, risking 3S on a minimum reverse like this. So be more wary of passing than you would with a human partner.

[Cyberyeti]

4♠ is a massive overbid, style also matters. If you bid suits up the line, partner either has mirror shape or has 5♠, if you bid 4♠ in front of 4-5♦ he is much more likely to only have 4.

Do you really want to be in game opposite even KJxx, xx(x), Qxx(x), xxx

[akwoo]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-October-13, 07:04, said:

4♠ is a massive overbid, style also matters. If you bid suits up the line, partner either has mirror shape or has 5♠, if you bid 4♠ in front of 4-5♦ he is much more likely to only have 4.

Do you really want to be in game opposite even KJxx, xx(x), Qxx(x), xxx

The problem some strong NTers have is that they're raising to 3♠ with hands like KQJx x xxx AKxxx. To be fair to them, that's a much much better hand than Jxxx QJx KJ KJxx, so I get why you don't want both hands raising to 2♠. OTOH, raising to 3♠ with both KQJx x xxx AKxxx and the given AQxx Kxx AKx Qxx is also problematic, so you end up bidding 4♠ on the latter.

This is one of the advantages of weak NT - you get the crap hands out of opening 1m so you can have more sensible ranges (in terms of playing strength) for raises after 1m-1M - though of course there are disadvantages.

[Cyberyeti]

akwoo, on 2025-October-13, 12:22, said:

The problem some strong NTers have is that they're raising to 3♠ with hands like KQJx x xxx AKxxx. To be fair to them, that's a much much better hand than Jxxx QJx KJ KJxx, so I get why you don't want both hands raising to 2♠. OTOH, raising to 3♠ with both KQJx x xxx AKxxx and the given AQxx Kxx AKx Qxx is also problematic, so you end up bidding 4♠ on the latter.

This is one of the advantages of weak NT - you get the crap hands out of opening 1m so you can have more sensible ranges (in terms of playing strength) for raises after 1m-1M - though of course there are disadvantages.

tbf our auction opposite that either starts 1♠-2♠ or 1♣-1♠-1N-P

I've played 3N with a 5-4 major suit fit before, I'm sure it will happen again, it's far from always been bad