[jillybean]

Playing standard, no t walsh or fancy stuff, partner opens 1m and rebids 2m over my 1M

We know 2C denies 3or4 hearts, spades and the ability* to bid nt
How many cards in the minor do you expect?

---

[mw64ahw]

I expect 6+♣ limited

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-November-17, 07:52, said:

I expect 6+♣ limited

5♣4♦22 outside NT range what do you do ?

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-17, 08:28, said:

5♣4♦22 outside NT range what do you do ?

Open 1♦
With this shape you can predict the problem over partner's 1M bid. We have discussed 1♦ 1M 2♣ could be on this shape to avoid this problem.

[mike777]

I expect 6, might only be 5.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-November-17, 08:37, said:

I expect 6, might only be 5.

Please show me a hand where you would bid 2m with 5

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 08:33, said:

Open 1♦
With this shape you can predict the problem over partner's 1M bid. We have discussed 1♦ 1M 2♣ could be on this shape.

Why?

What is wrong with opening your longest suit?


And you do the same with 5431? The single being hearts?

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-November-17, 08:39, said:

Why?

What is wrong with opening your longest suit?


And you do the same with 5431? The single being hearts?

What's wrong? We have an awkward rebid.

3145, looks like I open 1C and raise 1S or bid 1nt/1H but obviously dependant on the actual hand

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 08:33, said:

Open 1♦
With this shape you can predict the problem over partner's 1M bid. We have discussed 1♦ 1M 2♣ could be on this shape to avoid this problem.

This is very uncommon in the UK, more so in other parts of the world (or in a strong club setting obviously), the problem with this is that there is a danger of playing a 4-2 fit instead of 5-2

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-17, 08:47, said:

This is very uncommon in the UK, more so in other parts of the world (or in a strong club setting obviously), the problem with this is that there is a danger of playing a 4-2 fit instead of 5-2

Yes, it is a gamble but often works out and keeps the auction low. 4-2 fits demand creative play
AFAIK, it is common in NA but I may be wrong and will be shot down.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 08:54, said:

Yes, it is a gamble but often works out and keeps the auction low. 4-2 fits demand creative play
AFAIK, it is common in NA but I may be wrong and will be shot down.

If you play bal. club, unbal. diamond, than you will have to open 1D with a 4 carder,
... unless you define 5422 as bal.
Rebidding 1NT with a single in p NT works, ..., until you discover, that your p will
have a problem, when he needs to decide, letting you play 1 NT, or does he has to rebid
his 5 card major. 2M will be the better partial most of the time, if he is broke, but
maybe not when he is in a 5-1.
It will also mean, that you quite often will play 4H/4S in a 6-1.

It is possible to do agree to such a style, ...,

But if someone teaches this to starting players, he ought to be shot.

I try to reach sensible contracts, that dont require creative play.

[mikeh]

It depends

Say I have Axx x Jxxx AKJxx. Assuming that system constraints mean one doesn’t rebid 1N after 1m 1H (I’m not suggesting a 1N bid is a good idea) then I’d far rather open 1C and rebid 2C than open 1D, rebid 2C and see partner prefer to 2D.

Give me Axx x AKJx Jxxxx and I’d far rather open 1D and rebid 2C than open 1C and get passed in 2C.

Obviously which approach works depends on partner’s hand: with either example, the other approach might be better. And one rarely has quite so well defined strength discrepancies in the two suits. The closer they are, the more I tend to prefer opening and rebidding my longer suit.

One real issue is that after 1D 1H 2C responder will always bid 2D with equal length, ensuring you reach the less preferable contract. And he will/should always bid 2D with 2=3 if he has sufficient strength to think that game is possible but can’t do anything else. In standard 2/1 types of methods, 1D 2C could be on a 17 count 3=1=5=4…wrong for 2N and not strong enough to game force. So the ‘false ‘ preference to 2D is needed to permit opener to then rebid 2N, or to bid 2H with, say 1=3=4=5 too strong to raise hearts originally.

This debate was already long discussed when I began playing in the 1970s and I’ve never seen nor expect to see a clearly best solution within the context of standard 2/1 types of methods.

[jillybean]

AKJxx looks more like a 6 card suit

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-17, 08:28, said:

5♣4♦22 outside NT range what do you do ?

I'll bid 1N if the ops. don't show a negative X over partners Major or bid 1♠ over 1♥ and will do so if I have a stopper.

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 08:39, said:

Please show me a hand where you would bid 2m with 5

Numerous hand types that I won't rebid 1nt.

Yes partner expects six, this is so rarely a problem..I don't worry..

[jillybean]

So, what would you teach new players in North America?
It doesn't matter but make sure you discuss with your partner.

[DavidKok]

2♣ shows at least 5 for me. I'm not sure I agree with any of the comments so far.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 08:39, said:

Please show me a hand where you would bid 2m with 5

Opener rebids his suit, if he cannot make a more descriptive bid, that promises, what ever it
promises, but is forced to bid, so he rebids his suit, regardless of the lengthof his opened suit.
This is similar to a 1NT response, if one has 6HCP and opener opens the bidding, his partner has
to find a bid, and sometimes he cannot bid his suit, because this promises what ever it promises,
so he bids 1NT, regardless of his shape.

If you are 4441, and dont want to rebid NT with a single in partners suit, you open 1D and rebid 2C.

The thing is, even in this scenario, your 2nd suit has at least as many cards as your first suit.
=> With equal length, responder gives preference to your first suit, and you are not worse of.
You loose out, if he gives preference with 2/3, but this is really rare.

So to answer your original q: In a natural system that openes with its longest suit, which may not
but be the best suit, the rebid showes 5+. Length rules.


Most peoble would happily open with 1M holding xxxxx and dont look at a club suit AKQJ.

[mycroft]

In a standard system, this is not very limited. 1♣-1M; 3♣ is quite a strong hand, so 2♣ can be a minimum, but can also be quite heavy. I encourage my partners to "invite" with 3 and a good 8 or 9, in case I have the good 16 that isn't quite good enough for a "could be 19/20" 3♣ (the huge 20s and 21s "fake a reverse" to ensure they don't get passed, right?) If it turns out partner has the minimum, at least you're "at the 3 level with '9' trumps, should be okay".

And yes, I play this "promises" 6. Like some other parts of my system, "That's what partner promises. She might not have it". I am on the "don't like faking 4♦-5♣ hands" side of the spectrum, so sometimes 2♣ rebid is "looks closer to 4-6 than 5-5". I like Mike's hands for description. To me, un-correctly-biddable minors hands get the "least lie" treatment; it's important to plan it before the opening, of course. Once you've opened, you sometimes have lost your least lie, and have to go with your least possible lie now...

I love bridge *because* it's unsolveable.

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2025-November-17, 10:49, said:

So, what would you teach new players in North America?
It doesn't matter but make sure you discuss with your partner.

I think there is an elephant in the room that you're not acknowledging, perhaps not even noticing.

Before anything about this bid, you teach players to have some competence at playing in NT, and some tolerance for going down on unfortunate lies of the cards. Otherwise, you have players who are afraid to bid 1N after 1♣-1♥ on, say, xxx Axx Qx AKxxx, or even xxx Axx Qxx AKxx. Players who are afraid of playing 1N start making 2♣ rebids on those hands.

Fundamentally, playing in NT is harder than playing in a suit because, when playing in a suit, you can often get away with counting just trumps, whereas, when playing in NT, you don't know which suit to count (and don't have the mental capacity to count more than one). This may not be something you can overcome completely, but you might be able to convince players that it's better to do the right thing in the bidding while their play skills slowly catch up.

Once players are willing to play in 1N, you teach them that 2♣ promises 6, but sometimes every bid available to them breaks a promise and they have to somehow lie. These hands don't come up that often, so it's really not that much of a problem if they end up making the wrong lie on them. So sometimes they get one bad board for making a terribly understrength reverse into 2♦. Not a big deal, especially if their partner can't recognize reverses and sometimes passes them anyway.