[jillybean]

Playing the old style Jacoby, when would opener show a second 5 card suit at the 4 level, rather than shortness at the 3 level?

[gszes]

I generally would show the 2nd 5 card suit when my short suit had an A or K (for the same reason splintering a singleton A/K all too easily can cause p to misjudge their hand). The second 5 card suit makes splinter sequences less accurate. Axxxx xx A AKxxx opposite KQxx Axx Kx QJxx 1s 2n 4c 4n 5c (03) 5n 6c (club K) 7n almost impossible to bid w/o knowledge of the 5th club.

[jillybean]

Thanks, I played 'old Jacoby' for years without understanding or using the second suit option. We showed shortness, min or maximum opening.

Today, my partner showed his second suit I had no idea how to proceed. 1S 2N 4D
Q J 8 7
K Q 2
K 5
J 9 6 4

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-05, 21:07, said:

Thanks, I played 'old Jacoby' for years without understanding or using the second suit option. We showed shortness, min or maximum opening.

Today, my partner showed his second suit I had no idea how to proceed. 1S 2N 4D
Q J 8 7
K Q 2
K 5
J 9 6 4

Easy 4S, your hand is dead minimum or less.
If partner makes a control bid of 5C over your 4s, now you can come alive

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-January-05, 21:09, said:

Easy 4S, your hand is dead minimum or less.
If partner makes a control bid of 5C over your 4s, now you can come alive

Yeah, that was my bid. Making 6

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-06, 14:36, said:

Yeah, that was my bid. Making 6

Hmmm if six was cold on any defense sounds as if partner needed to bid again.


You could not have any less for your bid.

[AL78]

mike777, on 2026-January-06, 16:04, said:

Hmmm if six was cold on any defense sounds as if partner needed to bid again.


You could not have any less for your bid.

Or the hands fitted perfectly.

[mike777]

 AL78, on 2026-January-06, 16:07, said:

Or the hands fitted perfectly.

Opener still needs a club control yet did not show it

For me it is a typical four card limit raise. So if slam is cold, Opener needs to move

I mean for me the responder hand is not close to a strong and forcing raise.

[akwoo]

My preference would be that the 4 level bid shows exactly HHxxx in both 5 card suits (H=A/K/Q) and nothing in the others. Yes, very specific, but you're eating up a lot of bidding room.

Jillybean - I'm almost sure your partner should've made another move. Do they understand losing trick count? Can they visualize partner's hand for slam evaluation purposes? You had a terrible hand over a 4D bid.

AL78 - you have 6 hcp contributing at most one trick. There is no way the hands fit perfectly. AKxxx Ax AQxxx x is certainly worth another try - it's a 4 LTC (or 3.5 MLTC) hand!

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2026-January-06, 16:55, said:

Jillybean - I'm almost sure your partner should've made another move. Do they understand losing trick count? Can they visualize partner's hand for slam evaluation purposes? You had a terrible hand over a 4D bid.

I don't understand LTC but wouldnt bid like this,nor do I want to play SA, I want to try things, 1C:2C* Italian Style
I'm struggling to find a partner to match my weird style, or even contemplate opening 42,AT2,K985,A854 first seat.

You are going to choke when you see my partners hand from the OP

Spoiler

A K 6 3 2
A J
A Q 10 9 6
5

4 level response to Jacoby was undiscussed but "I should have bid 6"

[mycroft]

What do you think will help partner analyze their hand for slam? Shortness? The long suit? Whichever your hand tells you, do that.

I play it as "a second suit of quality that will provide tricks". And remember, this is "tricks for slam", so there can't be two losers in it to set it up. So, AJ8xx? Show the singleton. KQJ9x? Any reasonable support in that suit means you have trumps and tricks, so as long as we're not losing 2 quicks...now partner can keycard. Here, if all he knows is that you're short in this suit, he's still "okay we don't have two losers, but do we have 12 tricks?".

Especially in "old Jacoby" where showing the singleton is "11-21".

[johnu]

jillybean, on 2026-January-05, 19:02, said:

Playing the old style Jacoby, when would opener show a second 5 card suit at the 4 level, rather than shortness at the 3 level?

When was this played? It could just be a bad memory, but I don't recall anybody playing this against me. Sounds like a terrible idea which is probably why it isn't played today.

[jillybean]

johnu, on 2026-January-06, 19:51, said:

When was this played? It could just be a bad memory, but I don't recall anybody playing this against me. Sounds like a terrible idea which is probably why it isn't played today.

This is how I was taught 20+ years ago. It was played this week

[akwoo]

I'm only opening that hand first seat in a Precision context, or if it's within my 1N range.

Your partner does not understand slam bidding, probably because he or she does not have the prerequisite skill of looking at his or her hand and figuring out what hands from partner will make slam.

[mikeh]

johnu, on 2026-January-06, 19:51, said:

When was this played? It could just be a bad memory, but I don't recall anybody playing this against me. Sounds like a terrible idea which is probably why it isn't played today.

Well, that’s me told, lol

In my main partnership we use a new suit at the 4 level to show extra values, so a good 15+, with a suit tyat will,offer a good play for 5 winners opposite the ace or king (more accurately…no losers and either 5 winners or can be ruffed home)

Our structure:

3C all minimums except hands we probably shouldn’t have opened…we open some 10 counts, lol.

Over 3C, responder asks for shortness but only with slam interest opposite a useful minimum. Otherwise, just bids game and the opps don’t know anything about opener’s shape. Never tell the opps information that may help them but won’t help you.

3D is a 5 card major, at least a good 14 count. Responder can ask for shortness via 3H…step responses, none, lower, middle, high. We use NLMH steps in a number of strong auctions, not just jacoby.

3H is 6+ major, extras, 3S asks

3S is a void somewhere. No need for extras since a void will provide tricks given that we have a big trump fit. 3N asks, LMH.

Having said that we do play 4x as a good side suit, the reality is that I don’t think we’ve had the hand for it in quite a long time.

Also, I’d suggest that one should have first or second round control in both side suits…obviously you have at least one short suit, and you do have some extras so this would often be the case even without a specific agreement.