[pilun]

---

3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 7 QPs (3/2/1)
4N = ♠ - yes, ♦ - 0/4+ QP (so 0 this time)
5♦ = ♣ - 0/4+ QP, so A-Q.
5♠ = ?

With DCB, we switch to positive cueing (PCB) with singletons.
Our agreement with stiff honours devalues K & Q:
A = 3 QP
K = 1 QP, then cue to show it
Q = 0 QP, then ignore?

So this is the question.

DO you ignore stiff queens completely? Or
Do ignore them when counting QP but still cue them as stiff A/K/Q?

[mw64ahw]

Not an approach I use, but I wouldn't ignore them completely. Valuing then depends on whether partner has bid the suit and you can identify value.

[awm]

We do not ignore stiff queens at all, so I suppose I cannot answer this question.

[pilun]

awm, on 2026-February-17, 11:16, said:

We do not ignore stiff queens at all, so I suppose I cannot answer this question.

Thanks for that.
Sounds like you treat stiff A/K/Q at full value and show them.
It would take a lot of time to playtest all this.

[awm]

What we've recently decided to do, which is quite opposed to some other players here, is to not only count singleton honours at full value in the RPs but to scan the singleton FIRST. We stop if holding a singleton A/K/Q and skip if holding no honour (reverse of what we usually do).

[foobar]

awm, on 2026-February-18, 11:23, said:

What we've recently decided to do, which is quite opposed to some other players here, is to not only count singleton honours at full value in the RPs but to scan the singleton FIRST. We stop if holding a singleton A/K/Q and skip if holding no honour (reverse of what we usually do).

Wow, this seems really interesting. Can you please share the details with insights from specific hands if possible?

[ynhhyjb]

pilun, on 2026-February-17, 04:41, said:

---

3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 7 QPs (3/2/1)
4N = ♠ - yes, ♦ - 0/4+ QP (so 0 this time)
5♦ = ♣ - 0/4+ QP, so A-Q.
5♠ = ?

With DCB, we switch to positive cueing (PCB) with singletons.
Our agreement with stiff honours devalues K & Q:
A = 3 QP
K = 1 QP, then cue to show it
Q = 0 QP, then ignore?

So this is the question.

DO you ignore stiff queens completely? Or
Do ignore them when counting QP but still cue them as stiff A/K/Q?

I play relay precision,I'll share my method
3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 4 KPs (KP,A=2KP,K=1KP)
4N = ♠=yes(♠A), ♦ =0/3 KP (♦=0,♣=2KP,4-2=2,♣A)
5♦ = no ♠Q
5♠ = no ♦Q
5NT:relay;6♥ =♣Q,stiff♥Q/♥K or ♥J no ♦J
7NT:TP
6+ suits do no scan J and a single suit scans stiff K/Q and J

[foobar]

pilun, on 2026-February-17, 04:41, said:

---

3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 7 QPs (3/2/1)
4N = ♠ - yes, ♦ - 0/4+ QP (so 0 this time)
5♦ = ♣ - 0/4+ QP, so A-Q.
5♠ = ?

With DCB, we switch to positive cueing (PCB) with singletons.
Our agreement with stiff honours devalues K & Q:
A = 3 QP
K = 1 QP, then cue to show it
Q = 0 QP, then ignore?

So this is the question.

DO you ignore stiff queens completely? Or
Do ignore them when counting QP but still cue them as stiff A/K/Q?

Playing KKR, the bidding will go:

...3♥ (6=1=3=3) - 3♠ ®
...4♦ (4 AK) - 4♥ (DCB)
...4N (♠ A/K, AK ♦ or none) - 5♣ (DCB)
...5♦ (no Q♠) - 5♥ -> Note that with singleton or void, KKR scans only two suits
...5♠ (no Q♦) - 5N (DCB)
...6♦, Q♣ and not stiff K♥, so clearly Axxxxx x xxx AQx

On this hand, it seems like the systemic decision to not scan stiff Qs precludes us going beyond the 6-level. In fact, as declarer West must be a little concerned about an opening ♣ lead through AQx.

[foobar]

pilun, on 2026-February-17, 04:41, said:

---

3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 7 QPs (3/2/1)
4N = ♠ - yes, ♦ - 0/4+ QP (so 0 this time)
5♦ = ♣ - 0/4+ QP, so A-Q.
5♠ = ?

With DCB, we switch to positive cueing (PCB) with singletons.
Our agreement with stiff honours devalues K & Q:
A = 3 QP
K = 1 QP, then cue to show it
Q = 0 QP, then ignore?

So this is the question.

DO you ignore stiff queens completely? Or
Do ignore them when counting QP but still cue them as stiff A/K/Q?

Nick,

On this hand following the 4♦ response showing 7 QPs, isn't there a legitimate concern that responder might be Axxxxx x Kxx Kxx? In any case, DCB is fine since we can bail out in 5♠ if it's indeed that hand. Your treatment of 0/4 looks pretty interesting, and I am wondering how it compares with the awm's PCB approach (which uses odd/even).

In a previous thread, DinDip had alluded to facing "marriage problems" with PCB on some hands, and it will be interesting to know more about your specific scheme and how it tackles those hands.

[pilun]

 foobar, on 2026-February-27, 13:19, said:

Nick,

On this hand following the 4♦ response showing 7 QPs, isn't there a legitimate concern that responder might be Axxxxx x Kxx Kxx? In any case, DCB is fine since we can bail out in 5♠ if it's indeed that hand. Your treatment of 0/4 looks pretty interesting, and I am wondering how it compares with the awm's PCB approach (which uses odd/even).

In a previous thread, DinDip had alluded to facing "marriage problems" with PCB on some hands, and it will be interesting to know more about your specific scheme and how it tackles those hands.

Opposite the minor kings, we'll play 6♠ from the wrong side. When South has ♣A, North will often lead something else.
Parity DCB has clear merit but we are set in our ways. We very rarely come across a hand where we think another method might be better.
We keep it simple and devote more effort to finding the right game, plus non-relay and competitive auctions.

[pilun]

ynhhyjb, on 2026-February-24, 07:41, said:

I play relay precision,I'll share my method
3♥ = 6-1-3-3
4♦ = 4 KPs (KP,A=2KP,K=1KP)
4N = ♠=yes(♠A), ♦ =0/3 KP (♦=0,♣=2KP,4-2=2,♣A)
5♦ = no ♠Q
5♠ = no ♦Q
5NT:relay;6♥ =♣Q,stiff♥Q/♥K or ♥J no ♦J
7NT:TP
6+ suits do no scan J and a single suit scans stiff K/Q and J

I guess that all works.
East needs to know that West knows .... etc

5♦ could have been ♠K & ♦AK, or ♠K & ♣AK

Yes? Kit says that is never a problem but I have doubts.

[ynhhyjb]

when 4+cards support partner suit and have 5+cards seni-solid suit and have the third suit A，in this way:
1C:15+; 1H:8+,4+S
2C:trump asking;2D:=3QP(KQ/A)
2S:asking H: 3D:H=Q/A
3S:asking D: 3N:D=0/AQ
4C:asking C: 4D:C=0/AQ
4H:R; 4N:C=AQ
5C:R; 5S:6 cards S
7N:TP;

[Zelandakh]

Playing the traditional AK control style, I devalue singleton king/queen in the control relays but include explicit queen asks via bidding 4/5NT after control relays have started. It's not quite as fashionable as the QP methods but it generally gets the job done pretty well.

[foobar]

Zelandakh, on 2026-March-23, 16:50, said:

Playing the traditional AK control style, I devalue singleton king/queen in the control relays but include explicit queen asks via bidding 4/5NT after control relays have started. It's not quite as fashionable as the QP methods but it generally gets the job done pretty well.

I don't know whether the QP vs. controls debate ever got resolved (or if there's a canonical answer). How does your explicit queen ask scheme work? Can you elaborate with an example that works on this particular hand?

[foobar]

pilun, on 2026-March-04, 05:12, said:

I guess that all works.
East needs to know that West knows .... etc

5♦ could have been ♠K & ♦AK, or ♠K & ♣AK

Yes? Kit says that is never a problem but I have doubts.

Kit did include one or two hands with stiff holdings but think it required responder to override the small slam signoff. IIRC, the reasoning went something like: "If the relay captain can bid that without knowing the unrevealed stiff, it ranks to be what's required for the grand slam".

[Zelandakh]

foobar, on 2026-March-29, 16:13, said:

I don't know whether the QP vs. controls debate ever got resolved (or if there's a canonical answer). How does your explicit queen ask scheme work? Can you elaborate with an example that works on this particular hand?

I can't give an equivalent auction on this hand as this is a 1♥ opening in my system and the relays come from the other side. But I can tell you how it works. Once a relay ask is made after shape resolution, a subsequent minNT relay break asks partner to bid the suit where they are missing a queen. The next suit bid from relayer is then either a non-forcing queen ask or, very rarely, 5NT which is now a jack ask. If a direct jump to 5NT is available, this starts a similar sequence but subsequent asks are forcing to 6NT. These two sequences effectively replace the trump queen ask and SSAs in RKCB, which are the 2 areas I found AK control auctions were occasionally weaker than natural.

[foobar]

Zelandakh, on 2026-March-29, 17:00, said:

I can't give an equivalent auction on this hand as this is a 1♥ opening in my system and the relays come from the other side. But I can tell you how it works. Once a relay ask is made after shape resolution, a subsequent minNT relay break asks partner to bid the suit where they are missing a queen. The next suit bid from relayer is then either a non-forcing queen ask or, very rarely, 5NT which is now a jack ask. If a direct jump to 5NT is available, this starts a similar sequence but subsequent asks are forcing to 6NT. These two sequences effectively replace the trump queen ask and SSAs in RKCB, which are the 2 areas I found AK control auctions were occasionally weaker than natural.

That's an interesting treatment. If the cheapest NT is the Q-ask, how do you sign off in 3N for example? How does this scheme work without first knowing whether there are sufficient controls to explore slam?

Also, it will be great if you can give an example with this hand assuming a 1♥ opening.

[Zelandakh]

foobar, on 2026-April-01, 10:42, said:

That's an interesting treatment. If the cheapest NT is the Q-ask, how do you sign off in 3N for example? How does this scheme work without first knowing whether there are sufficient controls to explore slam?

Also, it will be great if you can give an example with this hand assuming a 1♥ opening.

Sorry, when I write minNT, I was assuming we were at the 4 level. 3NT is natural so 4NT is the cheapest queen ask. This queen ask generally happens after controls are shown and can also come in during DCBs. In effect it's just a way of using an otherwise idle call for something that gives a tangible benefit.

My auction here is pretty unexciting and not relevant to the general discussion. West shows a max 4522 with 6 controls (1♥ -> 2♣ -> 2NT -> 3♥ -> 4♦). In the first round (at 5♦) East knows these are ♠K, ♥A, ♦A and a red king, which is sufficient for slam. A second round (to 6♣) would show ♠Q and ♥K, so basically everything except ♥J, but that's not enough to bid grand in my world. East won't uncover ♥J here on a single dummy auction and there's absolutely no point in using a queen ask from the East side.

[foobar]

Zelandakh, on 2026-April-01, 15:50, said:

Sorry, when I write minNT, I was assuming we were at the 4 level. 3NT is natural so 4NT is the cheapest queen ask. This queen ask generally happens after controls are shown and can also come in during DCBs. In effect it's just a way of using an otherwise idle call for something that gives a tangible benefit.

My auction here is pretty unexciting and not relevant to the general discussion. West shows a max 4522 with 6 controls (1♥ -> 2♣ -> 2NT -> 3♥ -> 4♦). In the first round (at 5♦) East knows these are ♠K, ♥A, ♦A and a red king, which is sufficient for slam. A second round (to 6♣) would show ♠Q and ♥K, so basically everything except ♥J, but that's not enough to bid grand in my world. East won't uncover ♥J here on a single dummy auction and there's absolutely no point in using a queen ask from the East side.

Thanks -- that does make sense.

It looks like your system is essentially ~symmetric relays? My guess is that you ended at 3♥ over 3♣ (5422/7411) (unless you are already at +2). Also, since you opened this 1♥, you are likely playing Polish ♣ or similar?

[Zelandakh]

foobar, on 2026-April-01, 22:35, said:

Thanks -- that does make sense.

It looks like your system is essentially ~symmetric relays? My guess is that you ended at 3♥ over 3♣ (5422/7411) (unless you are already at +2). Also, since you opened this 1♥, you are likely playing Polish ♣ or similar?

It's my own modification of Symmetric Relay and I posted a fair bit about it back when you and straube were together. I don't mix 7411 in with 54xx, 2NT here is 54(31)/5422 with 74xx now resolving up at 3♦. The system base is similar to Polish Club, with 1♣ = "15+nat/bal or 18+ any", but is built much more around a Strong Club response structure. Relays only occur if Opener is 18+ (and Responder GF opposite 15) or if Responder to a 1 level opening is INV+ and the auction becomes game forcing. I haven't played it for a while so I've just started reviewing it with an eye to making a few small optimisations I've had in mind for a while. But the rules behind it are generally fixed and (I think) it works pretty well.