[Winstonm]

Scoring: IMP

Playing 2/1, the auction starts:

S W N E
1♠ P 2♦ P
3♦ p 3♠

After this start, can you reach the good diamond slam?

---

[whereagles]

Dunno. Maybe some bid that offers a choice of slams.

[EricK]

Are you playing a version of RKCB whereby if two suits are agreed there are six keycards (4 Aces 2 Kings) and you can ask for both Queens?

Eric

[cherdano]

Let's assume you play serious 3NT. I feel that the South hand is borderline for having strong slam interest, but I would just bid 4♦, denying a club control, and showing good diamonds.
Over that, North is borderline for sign-off, but I think he could just about make a last train bid of 4♥, implying a club control.
Now it would be nice to have 6-card rkcb -- in this case South can just bid 4NT and set the contract at 6♦. He know about the 5-4 diamond fit, and that his ruffing values will be useful only in diamonds.
So 4♦-4♥-4NT-5♣-6♦.

But I wouldn't be suprised to end in 4♠.

Arend

[mike777]

Hope this is not too double dummy.

1) South hand is a 6 lTC hand.
2) Double fit so subtract one=5 loser hand.
3) North has made a mild slam try at least so they must have at worst a 6 or 7 loser hand.
4) 24-5-7=12 tricks. Let's go for it.
5) 4nt=rkc for spades= 5h=6D choice of slam=pass.

Can we have 2 club losers, Yes.

[Free]

bid 4♣ control, then south can see you need to play 6♦, not 6♠...

[inquiry]

Winstonm, on Sep 3 2005, 03:30 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Playing 2/1, the auction starts:

S W N E
1♠ P 2♦ P
3♦ p 3♠

After this start, can you reach the good diamond slam?

---

1S - 2D (my 2D is always 5+)
3D - 3S (two suit agreement, 3D already showed extra values,hcp or distr)
3N - 4C (3N = serious, 4C = Ace or king)
4N - 5H
6D - Pass

6D = 5S, 5D, club Ace, and hopefully a heart ruff. Close to mirror image could be bad, however, if partner had Kxxx K Kxxxx Axx you would have no play.

[mike777]

inquiry, on Sep 3 2005, 10:41 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 3 2005, 03:30 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Playing 2/1, the auction starts:

S  W  N  E
1♠ P 2♦ P
3♦ p 3♠

After this start, can you reach the good diamond slam?

---

1S - 2D (my 2D is always 5+)
3D - 3S (two suit agreement, 3D already showed extra values,hcp or distr)
3N - 4C (3N = serious, 4C = Ace or king)
4N - 5H
6D - Pass

6D = 5S, 5D, club Ace, and hopefully a heart ruff. Close to mirror image could be bad, however, if partner had Kxxx K Kxxxx Axx you would have no play.

If 3nt shows extras on top of 3D I do not see them. After bidding 3d( extra) seems you are bidding your values twice here. I assume 3nt serious means you have extra values over and above your advertised extra value bid of 3D?

For me 3D would not show extra so I could then bid 3nt serious but here it seems you are bidding your values twice. Of course many people on BBO, perhaps not Ben, love to bid the same hand values 2 or 3 times.

[inquiry]

mike777, on Sep 3 2005, 06:00 PM, said:

If 3nt shows extras on top of 3D I do not see them. After bidding 3d( extra) seems you are bidding your values twice here. I assume 3nt serious means you have extra values over and above your advertised extra value bid of 3D?

For me 3D would not show extra so I could then bid 3nt serious but here it seems you are bidding your values twice. Of course many people on BBO, perhaps not Ben, love to bid the same hand values 2 or 3 times.

Mike, extra's are in the eyes of the beholder. Let's put this in ZAR perspective, since i think you know his evaluation. You have,

14 hcp, 4 control points, 13 distribution points, and a bonus point for concentration of hcp in two suits. This is 31 ZAR points. Partner bids 2♦, you instantly get two more for the AQ of diamonds, and two for the singleton heart. Your hand has soared to 35 ZAR points. Two full levels stronger than an opening 1 of a suit opening. This hand is VERY MUCH extra.

And then, of course there is another reason to bid 3NT. This is called auction planning. Looking at your hand you know you will (and can) take control of the auction if your partner can cue-bid in clubs. The only way he can do so, is if you GIVE him a chance.

So 3NT is the right bid based on, extra values (remember partner needs 26 zars for a 2/1 so my 35 and his 26 is 61, one short of what is "needed" for slam according to Zar). It is also right on the plan for the auction you should make when you hear partner's 3♠'s bid.

Ben

[mike777]

inquiry, on Sep 3 2005, 05:08 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 3 2005, 06:00 PM, said:

If 3nt shows extras on top of 3D I do not see them. After bidding 3d( extra) seems you are bidding your values twice here. I assume 3nt serious means you have extra values over and above your advertised extra value bid of 3D?

For me 3D would not show extra so I could then bid 3nt serious but here it seems you are bidding your values twice. Of course many people on BBO, perhaps not Ben, love to bid the same hand values 2 or 3 times.

Mike, extra's are in the eyes of the beholder. Let's put this in ZAR perspective, since i think you know his evaluation. You have,

14 hcp, 4 control points, 13 distribution points, and a bonus point for concentration of hcp in two suits. This is 31 ZAR points. Partner bids 2♦, you instantly get two more for the AQ of diamonds, and two for the singleton heart. Your hand has soared to 35 ZAR points. Two full levels stronger than an opening 1 of a suit opening. This hand is VERY MUCH extra.

And then, of course there is another reason to bid 3NT. This is called auction planning. Looking at your hand you know you will (and can) take control of the auction if your partner can cue-bid in clubs. The only way he can do so, is if you GIVE him a chance.

So 3NT is the right bid based on, extra values (remember partner needs 26 zars for a 2/1 so my 35 and his 26 is 61, one short of what is "needed" for slam according to Zar). It is also right on the plan for the auction you should make when you hear partner's 3♠'s bid.

Ben

1) I have no understanding of Zar, his site is too hard to understand, perhaps you could give a baby explanation of how you get 35 or whatever zar points in a bit more detail and all those added zar points. Have no idea what dist points or fit or misfit or most of that other stuff means .
2) BTW if partner cuebids 4clubs over serious 3nt, what does that promise for you? Only Ace or can be other?

thanks in advance.

[the hog]

You don't need an understanding of Zar points to realise that once Nth bids 2D and then supports S that the Sth hand is huge. Stiff H and D honours are fantastic cards. Its just a question of hand evaluation
I like Ben's auction. Mind you you'd want to get to 6D rather than 6S.

[Fluffy]

I must admit I would bid 6♠ in a flash, or at least I would tonight

[Winstonm]

EricK, on Sep 3 2005, 06:04 AM, said:

Are you playing a version of RKCB whereby if two suits are agreed there are six keycards (4 Aces 2 Kings) and you can ask for both Queens?

Eric

No, I'm not familiar with it. Sounds worthwhile.

Winston

[mikestar]

Against competent defense, this slam is nowhere near 50% so it would be good to miss it. It goes down on a club lead and is cold on any other lead barring an opening lead ruff. But if you've shown a double fit in spades and diamonds, the lead will always be a heart or a club. If the opening leader has ♥A, he will almost certainly lead a club, fearing the actual heart position, K opposite a stiff. So that's 50% you're going down, then at least some of the time he will choose a club when he doesn't have A♥, surely half the time when he has small cards in both suits, surely most all of the time when he has ♣KQ.

[Fluffy]

mikestar, on Sep 4 2005, 02:35 PM, said:

Against competent defense, this slam is nowhere near 50% so it would be good to miss it. It goes down on a club lead and is cold on any other lead barring an opening lead ruff. But if you've shown a double fit in spades and diamonds, the lead will always be a heart or a club. If the opening leader has ♥A, he will almost certainly lead a club, fearing the actual heart position, K opposite a stiff. So that's 50% you're going down, then at least some of the time he will choose a club when he doesn't have A♥, surely half the time when he has small cards in both suits, surely most all of the time when he has ♣KQ.

mike I think you bypassed an important fact on this board, take another look

[Winstonm]

mikestar, on Sep 4 2005, 09:35 AM, said:

Against competent defense, this slam is nowhere near 50% so it would be good to miss it. It goes down on a club lead and is cold on any other lead barring an opening lead ruff. But if you've shown a double fit in spades and diamonds, the lead will always be a heart or a club.  If the opening leader has ♥A, he will almost certainly lead a club, fearing the actual heart position, K opposite a stiff.  So that's 50% you're going down, then at least some of the time he will choose a club when he doesn't have A♥, surely half the time when he has small cards in both suits, surely most all of the time when he has ♣KQ.

Think you might have missed the point of this thread - can you reach the correct slam after this start - 6 diamonds is pretty well icy if the diamonds behave in a reasonable fashion.

Winston

[fifee]

Just had a similar discussion with a partner. If you have 2 fits and one partner has extra length in one of the suits, then by all means, bid slam in the suit where you have possibly equal holding or closer in length holding (54). For pitches, obviously.

If you can get to the slam level by cue or serious 3NT, or RKC for 1 or 2 known fits, then no question that the ♠ suit will be more likely to offer pitches. South knows the ♦ fit and should steer the ship into the right port.

Patty

[Winstonm]

fifee, on Sep 4 2005, 12:52 PM, said:

Just had a similar discussion with a partner.  If you have 2 fits and one partner has extra length in one of the suits, then by all means, bid slam in the suit where you have possibly equal holding or closer in length holding (54).  For pitches, obviously. 

If you can get to the slam level by cue or serious 3NT, or RKC for 1 or 2 known fits, then no question that the ♠ suit will be more likely to offer pitches.  South knows the ♦ fit and should steer the ship into the right port. 

Patty 

Excellent point, Patty. South has to take charge I believe in this hand to get to the right spot - north may at some point bid 6S and south doesn't want that to happen unless it is a valid choice supported by 4 spades in the north hand. It is up to south to tell north that the better fit is in diamonds.

Winston

[kenberg]

Playing 2/1 allows partners to exchange information, but only if they have agreements about the meaning of subsequent bids. Parhaps the following auction is possible:

1S-2D
3D-3S
4D-5C
6D


After 3S, opener visualizes a possible 5 spades, 5 diamonds, and outside ace and a ruff. Visualizing is nice but is it there?

1: Does 2D promise five diamonds? Responders do get dealt 2-4-4-3 hands and 3-4-4-2 hands with 14 hcp. If there has been a discussion of what to do with such hands other than bid 2D, then indeed the 2D can promise five. If there has been no discussion, then 2D does not promise five.

2. What can opener make of 3S? Most often, I think, the related sequence 1S-2D-3D-4S promises diamonds, spades, and no first or second round controls in the outside suits. If that is so, then all the 3S bid promises, besides spades and diamonds, is "not the hand for 4S"


Let's suppose that agreements are secure enough that opener can assume five diamonds and is willing to gamble that either his partner has the king of spades or else that the finesse is on. His diamond holding is good enough that he is willing to bet that suit is secure. He correctly realizes that the ace of clubs will bring in 12 tricks if diamonds, not spades, are trump.

Does rebidding 4D set diamonds unequivocally as trump? If so, this seems like the right call to stop pard from converting 6D to 6S.


3. After 4D, you bid 6 if partner cues the ace of clubs, and bid game if he doesn't.
You are gambling on bringing in spades and diamonds but, given the 2D bid shows five, it seems reasonable.

This is not highly scientific but I think it is reasonable.