BBO Discussion Forums: passed hand response to 1m - BBO Discussion Forums

We play invertend over 1m, but i htink it make less sense to play it when passed hand, do u have a passed hand different resposes ?

Yeah we've toyed with this too. We play the single raise by a passed hand as the old-fasioned 6-9 or so. You can still play a single raise as exactly limit, but you aren't giving up a lot either way.

If you have the limit raise, you can either jump shift to the other minor or make a jump raise.

inverted minors by a passed hand dont make a lot of sense to me since the GF hands are eliminated. I just play old fashioned jump raise=limit.

Jlall, on Sep 17 2005, 06:30 PM, said:

I prefer to keep my preemptive 3m raise available.

I think that passed hand with fit and limita values can just use criss-cross raises (jumpshift in om = limit raise)

I've gotten some pretty good results playing inverted raises opposite passed hand. Actually I know some people who play the 2m raise as specifically invitational (using a different raise as GF) for much the same reasons.

People don't usually sell to 2-minor after a weak raise. It might be that 2-minor is somehow the "best" spot but usually opponents will bid 2-major over it and end up pushing me to 3-minor. It's often more effective to make the direct preemptive raise when possible, or to respond 1NT (opponents bid a bit less aggressively over this because it's not a fit auction necessarily).

On the other hand, people do sell to 2-minor when it shows a limit raise. Since our side has announced the balance of power it can be pretty dangerous to come in (and I've sent some people for numbers when they tried to balance into opener's four-card major). With partner a passed hand, it's perfectly possible to pass out the inverted minor response. This response also keeps the auction low when opener has a big hand, and needs to determine whether we have chances at slam. Supposing opener has 18-19 balanced (probably the most common strong hand) after 1♦-3♦ (limit) or 1♦-3♣ (limit in diamonds) it seems like 3NT will probably be the next call and end the auction. Over 1♦-2♦ (limit) there is room to explore for 6♦ and still stop in 3NT when it's right.

Chamaco, on Sep 18 2005, 08:03 AM, said:

Who are you preempting? Both opponents have already passed.

Really hard for me to be a passed hand and have an invite in a minor though I suppose it is possible in theory. In any event I still would not be surprised if the opp's are passing and they have a game and we got nothing. Based on what little I have seen most are not as active as Justin at the table.

So would still just keep system the same 1Minor=2s=invite, 1minor=2 or 3 minor weak. Less to remember if not best in whatever I lose in theory.

Jlall, on Sep 18 2005, 08:00 PM, said:

If it goes

p-(p)-1m-(p)

i think it's important to jumpraise, at least for the partscore, with a weak hand.

I think it does not really matter who I am preempting, I am bidding right away to the level at which I am willing to play.
It's the same principle used in uncontested auctuions by LOTT-based schemes.

All in all, I think I am not losing much by using the criss-cross raise to show an invitational hand, or do you suggest that the crisscross bid should be used for something else by a passed hand ?

Chamaco, on Sep 18 2005, 05:37 PM, said:

When I say who are you preempting, I mean you are preempting partner. If you have a weak hand, and both opps have passed, where do you think the high cards are?

Jlall, on Sep 18 2005, 10:44 PM, said:

Usually, playing 2/1 or SAYC, I raise preemptively with aceless 0-5, and bid differently with 6-9 or with an Ace, to cater for a possibly strong opener.

However I must admit I usually play Precision, so my answer is biased by the fact my pard is usually limited.

Hi,

inv. minor opposite a passed hand can still be
useful, e.g. in investigating, if 3NT is a playable
spot.

At least that was one of the reason, why inv.
minors were invented.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Justin - I think as long as the preemptive raise is kept well defined it shouldn't be a problem. After all, you are more likely to be approaching the values for game when holding a limit raise than holding a preemptive raise, and the limit raise will be much more common. Why would you want to bid straight to 3m with the limit raise - who are you preempting?

MickyB, on Sep 19 2005, 03:03 AM, said:

If preemptive means constructive...like what a simple raise would show, I'd have no problem with that. But 0-5 doesn't make much sense to me. I agree with you, whatever the meaning it should be well defined.

After passed hand I don't change my system, which is:

After 1♦ with fit:

bid 3♦ with a bad distributional raise
3♣ with a good raise
2♦ with invite(+)

After 1♣:
2♣ with invite(+)
1NT with less
3♣ like 1♦ - 3♣

By unpassed hand - I play the single raise 10+, criss-cross=7-9 and jump raise 0-6. I think using the direct raise=gf and criss-cross=lr, leaves the jump raise too wide at 0-9. It also leaves little room for exploring 3N after the 1D 3C Lr bid.

Over a third-hand opener, I switch to a more natural system.
1m - 2m = still 10+
1m - 3m = still weak, but usually 6-9
criss-cross = natural 6-card suit, 10-11

Reading this post sure makes me think you guys are passing alot of hands in first and second seat I would open.

While I alter my passed hand responses to 1M, I pretty much don't change them to 1m. Of course, inverted raise is no longer REALLY forcing (I am passed hand after all), and the upper limit is lowered considerably.

Since "shutting out" the opps is not really an issue when they are both passed hands, getting to the "right" spot is the central concern. Overbidding and using up valuable real-estate is not a good idea.

As a passed hand, 1m-2m is 6-9 with 5 and j/s in the other minor is back to a WJS. All of these bids leave opener better placed to find the appropriate final contract or to punish the opps should they intercede.

Al_U_Card, on Sep 19 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

See other post where opp make 6clubs after this start. As I said, would not be surprised if opp can make game even as both have passed.

P_Marlowe, on Sep 19 2005, 01:41 AM, said:

This is the most common mistake ppl make about inverted minors. They look for stopers and end up in one of 2 senarios, first, they found they got the stopers and play 3nt opponents have more information then at other tables and give better diffence, second senario, they find they lack of stoper and therefore play in 5m going down one because there is just not enough tricks (5m takes 4 more hcp then 3nt) when opening the score they find out many pairs played 3nt and either diffence were wrong or suits behaved well (4-4 is godo example) and 3nt was made.
Had enough of those to make me understand, you should only chk for stopers when you see a good alternative game contract this mean you have extras, so 5m is an alternative and sometimes 4-3 major fit (which again will take more hcp then 3nt)