Help
I wonder why 15-17 is so common, i see big benefits of playing 14-16. this 14 hcp balance is a big problem when u cant open 1NT with it. example
1M-1NT* 6-11 without fit
now you can easily pass with 12-13 balance but 14 give u problem and you have to bid 3 card minor suit. Playing 14-16 NT solve this and 2m always show 4 cards.
another example
1m-2m* inverted 10+
again the 14 hcp balance is a problem, its not GF and its not weak, normally people play 2nt showing 12-13 and need to do soemething else with this 14.
Playing 14-16 NT solve this and you can use new suit to show unbalance 14+.
Another point is with 15-17 is 1x-1y-2nt being 18-19 is abit too strong, and if responder suppose to have 6 hcp its rarly passed, begining it with 17 might be a good idea. you will see ppl argueing about the meaning of 1S-1NT-2NT because it doesnt make enough sense to invite with 19, but with 15 u open 1nt.(not saying this has no solving, just that the basic design isnt so good)
What can you say to the other side, what is better with 15-17 ? And pls lets leave weak NT to other threads.
1NT 15-17 or 14-16 ?
#1
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,085
- Joined: 2004-March-26
- Location:Israel
Posted 2005-September-21, 13:46
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,143
- Joined: 2003-May-02
- Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posted 2005-September-21, 13:58
In two words: Field protection
The legend of the black octogon.
#3 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-21, 13:59
The original concept (I believe) was to have 3 point ranges if an invite was possible, and 2 point ranges if an invite was not possible. a balanced 12 was a minimum opener thus.
1m then 1N=12-14
1N=15-17
1m then 2N=18-19
2N=20-21.
If you make your range 14-16 now you have ranges like
1m then 1N (11)12-13
1N =14-16
1m then 2N=17-18
2N=19-20
This way your 2N is a little weaker and you have more danger opposite a yarb. Also, if you dont open balanced 11s, then your 1m then 1N is only a 2 point range, which isnt necessarily bad but is very precise for such a low level auction and thus less frequent.
I do know Hamman plays 1N=decent 14-bad 17 for one of the reasons you mentioned (so it can go 1M-1N-pass). I don't really think it makes much of a difference, and 15-17 is more common because that is what is taught.
1m then 1N=12-14
1N=15-17
1m then 2N=18-19
2N=20-21.
If you make your range 14-16 now you have ranges like
1m then 1N (11)12-13
1N =14-16
1m then 2N=17-18
2N=19-20
This way your 2N is a little weaker and you have more danger opposite a yarb. Also, if you dont open balanced 11s, then your 1m then 1N is only a 2 point range, which isnt necessarily bad but is very precise for such a low level auction and thus less frequent.
I do know Hamman plays 1N=decent 14-bad 17 for one of the reasons you mentioned (so it can go 1M-1N-pass). I don't really think it makes much of a difference, and 15-17 is more common because that is what is taught.
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 8,687
- Joined: 2005-February-09
- Gender:Male
- Location:Zurich, Switzerland
Posted 2005-September-21, 14:07
Here are some of the advantages of 15-17:
(1) The 2NT rebid needs to have a tightly limited range. If you play 14-16, then rebidding 2NT on 17-19 is too wide a range for partner to make an accurate decision. On the other hand, rebidding 3NT on 19 takes up too much space (in particular it's hard to find 5-3 fits over this) and gets you too high if partner often responds on 4-6 hcp. Opening 2NT with 19 is an option, but 2NT is a yucky opening anyway and making it more frequent can't really be a good thing.
(2) The lighter you open 1NT, the less likely you are to make it when partner passes. Obviously this is not always a problem, and as weak notrumpers know it can sometimes be good to play 1NT when it isn't making. But 14 hcp is enough that opponents are not that likely to have a good contract, whereas not enough that 1NT is all that likely to make.
(3) The lighter you open 1NT, the more likely you are to miss a major suit fit. Basically you miss a major when you open 1NT and you have a 4-4 major fit, and partner's too weak to respond. The stronger your 1NT open, the less likely partner can't find a bid.
(4) Sometimes you can use 1NT as a rebid to "solve" problem distributions like 1435, despite not strictly having balanced shape. Opening 1NT is generally a bad policy with these hands because you are more likely to end in the wrong spot. The tighter your 1NT rebid range is, the less often you can make use of this. In fact the 15-17 opening range means that almost all of these problem hands can either rebid 1NT or will be strong enough for a reverse (the exception being a few good 15s or bad 16s).
Of course, there are also many advantages to 14-16, including that it's just strong enough to make opponents penalty doubles infrequent, yet weak enough that they can miss a 3NT game when they both pass with balanced hands. I'm happy to play 14-16 (or 13.5-16) in precision partnerships where problems (1) and (4) can be dealt with in other ways... but would prefer to stick to 15-17 (or 14.5-17) playing more standard methods.
Also note that a 5-card major is sometimes worth an extra point for length, and I fairly often open 1NT (15-17) with 5332-type patterns holding the sort of fourteen that really wants to be in game opposite a good 10.
(1) The 2NT rebid needs to have a tightly limited range. If you play 14-16, then rebidding 2NT on 17-19 is too wide a range for partner to make an accurate decision. On the other hand, rebidding 3NT on 19 takes up too much space (in particular it's hard to find 5-3 fits over this) and gets you too high if partner often responds on 4-6 hcp. Opening 2NT with 19 is an option, but 2NT is a yucky opening anyway and making it more frequent can't really be a good thing.
(2) The lighter you open 1NT, the less likely you are to make it when partner passes. Obviously this is not always a problem, and as weak notrumpers know it can sometimes be good to play 1NT when it isn't making. But 14 hcp is enough that opponents are not that likely to have a good contract, whereas not enough that 1NT is all that likely to make.
(3) The lighter you open 1NT, the more likely you are to miss a major suit fit. Basically you miss a major when you open 1NT and you have a 4-4 major fit, and partner's too weak to respond. The stronger your 1NT open, the less likely partner can't find a bid.
(4) Sometimes you can use 1NT as a rebid to "solve" problem distributions like 1435, despite not strictly having balanced shape. Opening 1NT is generally a bad policy with these hands because you are more likely to end in the wrong spot. The tighter your 1NT rebid range is, the less often you can make use of this. In fact the 15-17 opening range means that almost all of these problem hands can either rebid 1NT or will be strong enough for a reverse (the exception being a few good 15s or bad 16s).
Of course, there are also many advantages to 14-16, including that it's just strong enough to make opponents penalty doubles infrequent, yet weak enough that they can miss a 3NT game when they both pass with balanced hands. I'm happy to play 14-16 (or 13.5-16) in precision partnerships where problems (1) and (4) can be dealt with in other ways... but would prefer to stick to 15-17 (or 14.5-17) playing more standard methods.
Also note that a 5-card major is sometimes worth an extra point for length, and I fairly often open 1NT (15-17) with 5332-type patterns holding the sort of fourteen that really wants to be in game opposite a good 10.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,016
- Joined: 2005-June-20
- Location:Lovettsville, VA
Posted 2005-September-21, 14:50
good arguments. I think the most compelling is the danger in the upper range.
With a 14-16 opener, you play
1) 2N jump rebid = 17-18 and 2N opener = 19-20 (or 19-21) or
2) 2N jump rebid = 17-19 and 2N opener = 20-21
Opening 2N on 19 will go down that much more frequently, often dbled as many dbl all 2N p p contracts.
2N jump rebid with 17-19 range will result either in too many missed games if you only raise with 8, or poor 2N contracts when 17 is opposite 5-6. Esp since the rest of the field is playing 1N.
With a 14-16 opener, you play
1) 2N jump rebid = 17-18 and 2N opener = 19-20 (or 19-21) or
2) 2N jump rebid = 17-19 and 2N opener = 20-21
Opening 2N on 19 will go down that much more frequently, often dbled as many dbl all 2N p p contracts.
2N jump rebid with 17-19 range will result either in too many missed games if you only raise with 8, or poor 2N contracts when 17 is opposite 5-6. Esp since the rest of the field is playing 1N.
It costs nothing to be nice -- my better half
#6
- 5555
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 9,520
- Joined: 2003-September-04
- Gender:Male
Posted 2005-September-21, 14:53
I like 14-16 when opening light. When you routinely open light on distributional 26 Zar-point hands, then it is in my view inconsistent to pass almost all balanced 11 counts. However, if you open them, your 1NT rebid becomes 11-14, a little wide.
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#7
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,917
- Joined: 2003-October-07
- Gender:Male
Posted 2005-September-21, 14:59
A few play Mexican 2D along with 14-16 NT to solve this issue.
#8
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:01
cherdano, on Sep 21 2005, 04:53 PM, said:
I like 14-16 when opening light. When you routinely open light on distributional 26 Zar-point hands, then it is in my view inconsistent to pass almost all balanced 11 counts. However, if you open them, your 1NT rebid becomes 11-14, a little wide.
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
Well I open a lot of Zar 26 hands, and 25 with spades, and Hannie will be glad to tell you the story of my opening with 24 with spades once... (the hand had some plus features ZAR points ignore).
But I don't open balanced 11 too often... and not just because these often don't total anywhere near 26 ZAR's.....
--Ben--
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,143
- Joined: 2003-May-02
- Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:02
awm, on Sep 21 2005, 08:07 PM, said:
Here are some of the advantages of 15-17:
(1) The 2NT rebid needs to have a tightly limited range. If you play 14-16, then rebidding 2NT on 17-19 is too wide a range for partner to make an accurate decision. On the other hand, rebidding 3NT on 19 takes up too much space (in particular it's hard to find 5-3 fits over this) and gets you too high if partner often responds on 4-6 hcp. Opening 2NT with 19 is an option, but 2NT is a yucky opening anyway and making it more frequent can't really be a good thing.
(2) The lighter you open 1NT, the less likely you are to make it when partner passes. Obviously this is not always a problem, and as weak notrumpers know it can sometimes be good to play 1NT when it isn't making. But 14 hcp is enough that opponents are not that likely to have a good contract, whereas not enough that 1NT is all that likely to make.
(3) The lighter you open 1NT, the more likely you are to miss a major suit fit. Basically you miss a major when you open 1NT and you have a 4-4 major fit, and partner's too weak to respond. The stronger your 1NT open, the less likely partner can't find a bid.
(4) Sometimes you can use 1NT as a rebid to "solve" problem distributions like 1435, despite not strictly having balanced shape. Opening 1NT is generally a bad policy with these hands because you are more likely to end in the wrong spot. The tighter your 1NT rebid range is, the less often you can make use of this. In fact the 15-17 opening range means that almost all of these problem hands can either rebid 1NT or will be strong enough for a reverse (the exception being a few good 15s or bad 16s).
Of course, there are also many advantages to 14-16, including that it's just strong enough to make opponents penalty doubles infrequent, yet weak enough that they can miss a 3NT game when they both pass with balanced hands. I'm happy to play 14-16 (or 13.5-16) in precision partnerships where problems (1) and (4) can be dealt with in other ways... but would prefer to stick to 15-17 (or 14.5-17) playing more standard methods.
Also note that a 5-card major is sometimes worth an extra point for length, and I fairly often open 1NT (15-17) with 5332-type patterns holding the sort of fourteen that really wants to be in game opposite a good 10.
(1) The 2NT rebid needs to have a tightly limited range. If you play 14-16, then rebidding 2NT on 17-19 is too wide a range for partner to make an accurate decision. On the other hand, rebidding 3NT on 19 takes up too much space (in particular it's hard to find 5-3 fits over this) and gets you too high if partner often responds on 4-6 hcp. Opening 2NT with 19 is an option, but 2NT is a yucky opening anyway and making it more frequent can't really be a good thing.
(2) The lighter you open 1NT, the less likely you are to make it when partner passes. Obviously this is not always a problem, and as weak notrumpers know it can sometimes be good to play 1NT when it isn't making. But 14 hcp is enough that opponents are not that likely to have a good contract, whereas not enough that 1NT is all that likely to make.
(3) The lighter you open 1NT, the more likely you are to miss a major suit fit. Basically you miss a major when you open 1NT and you have a 4-4 major fit, and partner's too weak to respond. The stronger your 1NT open, the less likely partner can't find a bid.
(4) Sometimes you can use 1NT as a rebid to "solve" problem distributions like 1435, despite not strictly having balanced shape. Opening 1NT is generally a bad policy with these hands because you are more likely to end in the wrong spot. The tighter your 1NT rebid range is, the less often you can make use of this. In fact the 15-17 opening range means that almost all of these problem hands can either rebid 1NT or will be strong enough for a reverse (the exception being a few good 15s or bad 16s).
Of course, there are also many advantages to 14-16, including that it's just strong enough to make opponents penalty doubles infrequent, yet weak enough that they can miss a 3NT game when they both pass with balanced hands. I'm happy to play 14-16 (or 13.5-16) in precision partnerships where problems (1) and (4) can be dealt with in other ways... but would prefer to stick to 15-17 (or 14.5-17) playing more standard methods.
Also note that a 5-card major is sometimes worth an extra point for length, and I fairly often open 1NT (15-17) with 5332-type patterns holding the sort of fourteen that really wants to be in game opposite a good 10.
With all my respect I think all your reasons are a bunch of nonsense.
opening with 14-16 vs 15-17 is not really a factor about how likely you are to make 1NT or if you are going to miss a major suit fit or not.
We can discuss your ideas comparing 12-14 with 15-17 but 14-16 or 15-17 should be almost identical about the things you posted.
The legend of the black octogon.
#10
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,143
- Joined: 2003-May-02
- Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:03
cherdano, on Sep 21 2005, 08:53 PM, said:
I like 14-16 when opening light. When you routinely open light on distributional 26 Zar-point hands, then it is in my view inconsistent to pass almost all balanced 11 counts. However, if you open them, your 1NT rebid becomes 11-14, a little wide.
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
About dealing with the 17-19 range: I think some machinery like NMFO ("New minor forcing by opener" in inquiry2over1) is best for this, and maybe some of the more efficient ways to add gadgets to a natural system.
Arend
If you play 1NT 14-16 just use 2NT as 19-20 or 19-21 and the 2NT rebid is 17-18. I think this is quite simple.
The legend of the black octogon.
#11
- Group: Admin
- Posts: 14,566
- Joined: 2003-February-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:Amelia Island, FL
- Interests:Bridge, what else?
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:09
Advantage of 14-16, you get to open 1NT more often
Advantage of 15-17, when partner invites, you mgiht have 17 hcp...
Disadvantage of 14-16, when partner invites you might have 14....
Advantage of 14-16, if you play that, you will make me happy if you are my partner.... :-)
Advantage of 15-17, when partner invites, you mgiht have 17 hcp...
Disadvantage of 14-16, when partner invites you might have 14....
Advantage of 14-16, if you play that, you will make me happy if you are my partner.... :-)
--Ben--
#12
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 4,190
- Joined: 2003-September-30
- Location:London, England
- Interests:Cricket
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:10
I agree with Luis; no major difference between 15-17 and 14-16. One slight advantage if your NT range is 14-16. For obvious reasons you get to open 1NT more often.
Roland
Roland
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
#13
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,575
- Joined: 2004-March-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:UK
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:17
inquiry, on Sep 21 2005, 10:09 PM, said:
Advantage of 15-17, when partner invites, you mgiht have 17 hcp...
Disadvantage of 14-16, when partner invites you might have 14....
Disadvantage of 14-16, when partner invites you might have 14....
Confess I don't quite follow this.
Er ...
Advantage of 14-16, when partner invites, you might have 16 hcp ...
Disadvantage of 15-17, when partner invites you might have 15 ....
The point being?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#14
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 3,290
- Joined: 2004-May-03
- Gender:Male
- Location:London, England
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:22
Agree that AWM's 2nd and 3rd points aren't terribly relevant, but 1st+4th ones are. I don't see any particular need to open flat 11 counts, I don't like jump rebidding 2NT with 17 or having a 17-19 range, I don't like opening 2NT with 19...IMO it is probably best to play it as good 14-17 and accept you'll miss the odd game with average 14 opposite 11, as long as you don't open light enough that pard is wary of GFing on 12 counts you should be ok.
#15
- mmm Duvel
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,728
- Joined: 2003-July-30
- Gender:Male
- Location:Belgium
- Interests:Duvel, Whisky
Posted 2005-September-21, 15:26
Advantage of 14-16 NT: when you have 14 you usually get better scores.
Disadvantage of 14-16 NT: when you have 17 you get poor scores from time to time.
Trade-off: 14HCP is a lot more frequent than 17HCP, and you can still downgrade poor 17's.
Disadvantage of 14-16 NT: when you have 17 you get poor scores from time to time.
Trade-off: 14HCP is a lot more frequent than 17HCP, and you can still downgrade poor 17's.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#16
- World International Master without a clue
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,404
- Joined: 2003-November-13
- Gender:Male
- Location:madrid
Posted 2005-September-21, 16:19
Walddk, on Sep 21 2005, 09:10 PM, said:
I agree with Luis; no major difference between 15-17 and 14-16. One slight advantage if your NT range is 14-16. For obvious reasons you get to open 1NT more often.
Roland
Roland
This is a disadvantage because you will lose 4-4 major fits when partner is weak
#17
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 5,577
- Joined: 2005-March-01
- Gender:Male
- Location:Erlangen, Germany
-
Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
Nuclear power
Posted 2005-September-21, 16:26
(1) The 2NT rebid needs to have a tightly limited range.
True, we play this 17-18. 14-16 is also more suitable to short ♣ systems (1♣ natural or balanced 11 - 13 or 17 - 21). Then you can play 1♣ - 1♦ negative - 1NT as 17 - 19, 2NT = 20 - 21, and after the positive response 2NT rebid is nonforcing 17 - 18 and 2♦ rebid 19 - 21.
True, we play this 17-18. 14-16 is also more suitable to short ♣ systems (1♣ natural or balanced 11 - 13 or 17 - 21). Then you can play 1♣ - 1♦ negative - 1NT as 17 - 19, 2NT = 20 - 21, and after the positive response 2NT rebid is nonforcing 17 - 18 and 2♦ rebid 19 - 21.
#18 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2005-September-21, 16:32
Gerben42, on Sep 21 2005, 05:26 PM, said:
14 - 16
Add to advantages: If you have 8 HCP you can play 1NT not 2NT.
Add to advantages: If you have 8 HCP you can play 1NT not 2NT.
This makes no sense. Youre right with 15 opp 8 you get to find 1N, but similarly with 14 opp 9 you get to 2N playing 14-16 but would find 1N playing 15-17. It all comes out even in this regard.
#19
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,303
- Joined: 2003-February-14
- Location:England
Posted 2005-September-21, 16:45
Jlall, on Sep 21 2005, 10:32 PM, said:
Gerben42, on Sep 21 2005, 05:26 PM, said:
14 - 16
Add to advantages: If you have 8 HCP you can play 1NT not 2NT.
Add to advantages: If you have 8 HCP you can play 1NT not 2NT.
This makes no sense. Youre right with 15 opp 8 you get to find 1N, but similarly with 14 opp 9 you get to 2N playing 14-16 but would find 1N playing 15-17. It all comes out even in this regard.
Not quite even because the probability that partner has 9 points opposite a 14-16 NT is not the same as the probability he has 8 points opposite a 15-17 NT - although the difference is likely to be small. Also, 14 opposite 9 might well play on average slightly better than 15 opposite 8, but this difference is likely to be smaller still.
Eric
#20
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,951
- Joined: 2003-September-07
- Gender:Male
- Interests:Bridge, poker, politics
Posted 2005-September-21, 17:11
Fluffy, on Sep 21 2005, 05:19 PM, said:
Walddk, on Sep 21 2005, 09:10 PM, said:
I agree with Luis; no major difference between 15-17 and 14-16. One slight advantage if your NT range is 14-16. For obvious reasons you get to open 1NT more often.
Roland
Roland
This is a disadvantage because you will lose 4-4 major fits when partner is weak
i've heard others mention this, and i think it's overrated as a reason not to play weak (or even 14-16) nt... someone would have to run a sim, but for 1nt vs. 2M to be a problem, the opps would have to *not* overcall your supposed 1m opening, something they might be disinclined to do over a 1nt opening... that way your partner can bid his 4 card major unimpeded
i much prefer the weaker no trumps, and a big reason is the preemptive effect
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)