[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

---

15-17 NT. You are South, and the bidding goes:

1♦ - 1♠
1N - 2♦*)
3♦+)

*) Artificial GF relay.
+) 2-3-5-3 and maximum.

You want to set diamonds and find out if there is a club control or not **). 3♥ is not a cue bid for diamonds; it sets hearts (responder is 6-5 or 5-5 in the majors). What is your next bid, and what does it mean?

**) It is possible to give opener a maximum with no ♣A or K.

Roland

[joker_gib]

I will start with a simple 4♦

Possible he hasn't A or K of ♣ but then I will hear 4♥ and bid 4♠

Alain

[000002]

3♥ then 4♦ : cue ♥ and an forced cue-bid. because of the difference between the auction:1♦-2♥/2♠ response & 1d-1s-1n-3h/2h rebid.

Now define 3♥ an natural bidding as you like,a clear forcing cue-bid is 4♦, it denies♣ control or ♣ace,then ...5♣...show...

[Walddk]

000002, on Nov 15 2005, 11:33 AM, said:

Now define 3♥ an natural bidding as you like,a clear forcing cue-bid is 4♦, it denies♣ control or ♣ace,then ...5♣...show...

That's no good. 4♣ would set the suit. What else can you do if you are 5-5 in the blacks?

4♦ will set diamonds, and 4NT will be key card ask for diamonds if you like.

Roland

[000002]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 05:46 AM, said:

000002, on Nov 15 2005, 11:33 AM, said:

Now define 3♥ an natural bidding as you like,a clear forcing cue-bid is 4♦, it denies♣ control or ♣ace,then ...5♣...show...

That's no good. 4♣ would set the suit. What else can you do if you are 5-5 in the blacks?

4♦ will set diamonds, and 4NT will be key card ask for diamonds if you like.

Roland

oh my god.

Now the only way( i think ) is to cue by italian method---1st or 2nd control.

I think this is a simple FAQ ,y?

[FrancesHinden]

I also just bid 4D to set diamonds. It appears that is the only way I have of setting trumps, so that is what I shall do.

If partner bids 4S over that, he must be cue-ing the queen, which my partners would not usually do. That means he has an exceptionally good hand in context, and I could continue with grand slam force (although as I'm playing your system, I guess I could then use 4NT blackwood, which I don't play).

If partner cues 5C I shall simply cue 5H. That will get a Qx spade cue from him which I can follow by GSF, or a 6C cue over which I'm probably prepared to bid a grand myself as he's showing enthusiasm.

I play first round controls before second outside my suit, so if partner cues 4H with the king he must think he has an exceptionally good hand in context, and I'm probably prepared to bid a slam.

If partner bids 4NT (discouraging in my methods - partner can't possibly have a blackwood call himself) I shall have to bid 5D and he'll get the hint.

If parnter bids 5D (encouraging in my methods) - I shall raise.

It's interesting to wonder what 4H over 3D should mean, but I'm not trying it without agreements. My regular partner would think I had a heart singleton and a good hand for diamonds (well, OK, they wouldn't because we play different methods after a 1NT rebid, but you get the idea).

[Walddk]

Not easy at all. We have a grand opposite

Qx, Kxx, KQxxx, Axx

and no slam facing

Qx, KQx, KQJxx, J10x

The question is if we can find out if we must set trumps (4♦) first. Some play that 4♦ sets trumps and asks for key cards at the same time (kickback), but that won't solve the problem regarding a possible missing club control.

Roland

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 12:06 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ AKJ43 ♥ A2 ♦ A1094 ♣ Q3

15-17 NT. You are South, and the bidding goes:

1♦ - 1♠
1N - 2♦*)
3♦+)

*) Artificial GF relay.
+) 2-3-5-3 and maximum.

You want to set diamonds and find out if there is a club control or not **). 3♥ is not a cue bid for diamonds; it sets hearts (responder is 6-5 or 5-5 in the majors). What is your next bid, and what does it mean?

I don't get this question. You stipulate weird agreements (can I really still have a GF 5-5 hand?? Did everything besides 2♦ deny a game forcing hand?), and then you ask US what the next bid would mean? With normal agreements, I bid 3♥ (which is ambiguous as NT probe or advanced cuebid) and remove 3NT to 4♦. When I can't do that, I bid 4♦ and make all the cuebids I can on the way to 5♦.

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I suppose 3S is out as well, that
leaves 4D, ... hopefully it is
natural and not ace asking.

If it is ace asking, you may still
"survive", if you ask for kings
over partners reponse, with the
plan to get out in 5D or 5NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Nov 15 2005, 12:46 PM, said:

I don't get this question. You stipulate weird agreements (can I really still have a GF 5-5 hand?? Did everything besides 2♦ deny a game forcing hand?

I don't see anything weird here. Most expert pairs play 2-way check back Stayman. Consequently, only 2♦ is GF after a 1NT rebid (2♣ would be the beginning of an invitational sequence). You may not play it, but it's quite normal in expert circles, and that's where I have posted this.

It's not my intention to impose anything on you or anyone else for that matter. If you have a better way to explore after the 1NT rebid, go ahead and use it.

Roland

[Echognome]

Once you have resolved shape fully, why not continue the relay in the usual way that full relay systems do? Something like:

Next step (not 3NT): Slam Point ask
Two steps (not 3NT): Keycard
3NT: To play
4♦: Puppet to 4♥ termination

etc. Then after one of the first two steps, you can go with denial cuebidding, spiral scanning, etc? More regular relayers can give their thoughts here.


If that path doesn't interest you, then a generic next step asking partner to cue-bid 1/2 round controls seems ok. But then you need to be in agreement as to when you are simply placing the contract.

Just my thought.

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 01:52 PM, said:

cherdano, on Nov 15 2005, 12:46 PM, said:

I don't get this question. You stipulate weird agreements (can I really still have a GF 5-5 hand?? Did everything besides 2♦ deny a game forcing hand?

I don't see anything weird here. Most expert pairs play 2-way check back Stayman. Consequently, only 2♦ is GF after a 1NT rebid (2♣ would be the beginning of an invitational sequence). You may not play it, but it's quite normal in expert circles, and that's where I have posted this.

It's not my intention to impose anything on you or anyone else for that matter. If you have a better way to explore after the 1NT rebid, go ahead and use it.

Roland

So what does a 3♥ rebid by responder mean for these experts? When agreeing to two-way checkback (which I play with all my regular partners), I would always expect this to be 5-5, at least GF, since an invitational hand would start with 2♣.

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Nov 15 2005, 01:02 PM, said:

So what does a 3♥ rebid by responder mean for these experts?

I can only speak for myself: 6-4 in the majors, mildly invitational. 5-5 invitational would go through 2♣, then 3♥. ALL game forcing hands go through 2♦ in order to determine opener's pattern.

But back to the issue here. How do *you* proceed with the actual hand after opener's 1NT? Are you are able to set diamonds earlier and give up on opener's shape? Do you care if he has three spades or not? What is 3♦ in your methods?

Roland

[Chamaco]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 10:46 AM, said:

000002, on Nov 15 2005, 11:33 AM, said:

Now define 3♥ an natural bidding as you like,a clear forcing cue-bid is 4♦, it denies♣ control or ♣ace,then ...5♣...show...

That's no good. 4♣ would set the suit. What else can you do if you are 5-5 in the blacks?

One treatment of xyz checkback (where 2D is a generic GF, as in the presnt case) is that responder, with a slammish 55 would just jump to the 3 level.
When the second suit is clubs, the 2NT rebid shows clubs as second suit and slam ambitions.

I do think that the 2D generic GF should deny a slammish single suiter or 2 suiter.

However I acknowledge that the bidding of this hand needs precise agreements , both in terms of how to play the 2-way checkback structure, as well as how to handle the sequences for the exploration of a minor suit slam.

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 07:09 AM, said:

But back to the issue here. How do *you* proceed with the actual hand after opener's 1NT? Are you are able to set diamonds earlier and give up on opener's shape? Do you care if he has three spades or not? What is 3♦ in your methods?

Roland

Ah well, that's a different question altogether, I thought you were sticking us with these methods.

1D - 1S
1NT - 2H
2S - 3D

2H = forces 2S, shows at least 5
3D = game forcing, 5 spades & 4(+) diamonds, by inference at least interested in slam otherwise would have just bid 3NT.

How we continue depends on partner's next action. In this approach responder continues describing his hand rather than asking, so opener has a great deal of leeway:

- he can show 3-card spade support
- he can bid 3NT with an unsuitable hand
- he can bid 3H with values in hearts, nothing in clubs
- he can cue 4C with a good hand for diamonds
- he can bid 4D for a good hand for diamonds without the CA

you've told us he is 2353 maximum so I imagine he won't be bidding 3S, but I can't tell what I'm going to do next without knowing his call. I anticipate making one further try over 3NT (probably with 4H) and passing 4NT; if he does anything mroe enthusiastic we'll be in slam.

With a slightly weaker hand this auction (....3NT - 4H - 4S) might be a good way of playing in 4S at matchpoints opposite, say, Qx KQxx KQxxx Jx. I imagine I'd be in 5D opposite that at imps because I'd be looking too hard for slam.

Back to 2D FG checkback - I only play that in one partnership, and opener is only allowed to bid 2H, 2S or 2NT over it 90% of the time (2353 is not in the other 10%) - the idea is still that responder continues to describe their hand if appropriate. So in that partnership we'd have started....

1D - 1S - 1NT - 2D* - 2NT - 3D

which has the same advantage that it's now opener's go and he can tell us if he is suitable or not; it has the disadvantage that opener doesn't know responder has 5 spades.

the difference is that responder clarifies why he checked back at a lower level - he'
s managed to show a forcing diamond raise half a round earlier.

[000002]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 15 2005, 07:29 AM, said:

1D - 1S
1NT - 2H
2S - 3D

2H = forces 2S, shows at least 5
3D = game forcing, 5 spades & 4(+) diamonds, by inference at least interested in slam otherwise would have just bid 3NT.

oh nop

in this transferable major's auction, to show a 6crads minor surely and 6-9hcps

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Nov 15 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

But back to the issue here. How do *you* proceed with the actual hand after opener's 1NT? Are you are able to set diamonds earlier and give up on opener's shape? Do you care if he has three spades or not? What is 3♦ in your methods?

I have answered that already. I would start with 2♦ as in the given auction, and then bid 3♥ over 3♦, planning to bid 4♦ next, turning 3♥ into a cue-bid for diamonds.

On the way, I have denied 5 diamonds: with 4 spades, 5 diamonds, I would have started with 2NT instead of 2♦; with 5 spades and 5 diamonds, I would have jumped to 3♦. (I borrowed this treatment from an excellent Canadian poster on the bridgebase forums.)

Of course you are free to use your agreements, and maybe they are sound. But I don't think it makes sense to ask what the follow-up bids mean and then tell us that 4♣ means a 5-5 black two-suiter etc. and then finally telling us that 4♦ is the only way to set diamonds as trumps (apart from RKCB).

Arend

[FrancesHinden]

What do you mean "oh no"?

Roland asked what we played, and I replied with what I play with my most regular partner. I may sometimes forget bits of it at the table, but I promise you I know my system better than you.

(If I want to sign off in 2D I bid 2C, puppet to 2D. If I want to sign off in 3C or 3D I bid 2NT. If I have a weak hand with 5S and 4D and want to offer the choice of 2S or 3D I bid 2S.)

[000002]

nop,not nope

how to show 4major+6min and 11hcps with your method? thanks

[hrothgar]

The formatting looks a little strange on my system, so I need to clarify whats going on:

From the looks of things, RR (relay responder) has just bid 3♦ showing precisely 2=3=5=3 shape and a maximum hand:

The "easy" answer is to simply suggest that you use your normal auction termination mechanisms once shape has been described. In all seriousness, I can't imagine playing a relay structure without explicit agreements regarding auction termination:

For example, if I were playing MOSCITO we'd have the following agreement"

3♥ = slam point ask
3♠ = RKCB for Diamonds
3N = To play (RR will kick on with Base +3 slam points)
4♣ = RKCB for Hearts
4♦ = Transfer to 4♥ (RR with kick on with Base + 3 slam points)
4♥ = RKCB for Spades

Following Keycard, the relay asker has a variety of Control Asking Bids available. Personally, I'd start with 3♠ which will let me immediately determine whether I should be considering 7♦