[jillybean]

1♣:1♠
2♥

better than minimum

1♣:1♥
2♠

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+


I have found the earlier thread on this topic
http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...l=reverse&st=15

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Jul 16 2006, 02:01 AM, said:

1♣:1♠
2♥

better than minimum

1♣:1♥
2♠

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+

1. Reverse, 17(16)+ hcp. Forcing for at least one round.
2. Jump shift, 19-21 hcp, game forcing.

Reverse Bid
This is an unforced rebid at the 2-level or more ("high reverse") in a higher ranking suit than that originally bid. This shows at least 5 cards in the lower first-bid suit and at least 4 cards in the higher ranking suit. Minimum 16 hcp (some prefer 17+). It's a strong bid, but not game forcing.

Roland

[Winstonm]

jillybean2, on Jul 15 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

1♣:1♠
2♥

better than minimum

1♣:1♥
2♠

this is what I consider a reverse showing extra values - 16+

Terminology:

The first hand is a reverse, as opener reversed the order of bid suits, i.e., bidding his higher ranking suit secondly at the two level.

Hand two is a jump shift. Opener jumped the bidding (could have bid 1S but elected to bid 2) and shifted to a new suit (spades). Most play this as a virtual game force. (And some call this a jump reverse, as well.)

As for strength, it is really not an issue for debate or personal feelings. The strength required to reverse is one that has enough extra values to play at the 3-level in a 5/3 fit when responder holds a bare minimum. American players I believe would call it a good 17 on up. You are not reversing to show your strength - a minimum reverse strength hand (17 count) might bid 1H-1S-2C with longer hearts - the point is it requires a lot of HCP to reverse this sequence because partner may be on a lousy 6-count with at best so-so support.

You state it only shows extra values as this is the cheapest way to bid your second suit - and you have now hit upon the problem of playing 5-card majors - sometimes you can't bid your other suit because the hand is not strong enough. (Just look at all the posts about rebidding 1N or 2C or opening 1N on these types hands).

This gets back to Goren. Goren taught that with a hand such as:
x, AKxx, xxx, AKJxx that you have to be prepared for a 1S response from partner and thus must plan your bidding - in this case the opening bid would be 1H so when partner bids 1S or 1N opener has a rebid without reversing - because the hand is not strong enough to play opposite KJxx, xxx, Qxx, xxx at the three level.
But 4-card major have some built in innaccuracy. What do you do with xx, xx support in both suits? How does opener show 5 in a major, etc. Hence was born 5-card majors....and a new set of problems.

However, players of the stature of Bob Hamman and Eddie Kantar played 4-card majors almost forever (and may still for all I know).

[jillybean]

This is a little like a jig saw puzzle, for anyone who is interested here is the other thread on reverses where I asked a very similar question.


http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...ra+values"

[luke warm]

the link posted shows competitive bidding.. the examples in this thread are constructive bidding... my view is the same as others

1c : 1s
2h is a reverse, showing 17+ playing points and is a 1 round force

1c : 1h
2s is a jump shift, showing 19+ playing points and is a game force

in the other thread, there was interference and i think adam's explanation there about says it all

[jillybean]

Thanks Jimmy, I didn’t mean to imply that these questions were the same, I see how that wasn’t clear.
For me it good to see the different auctions and how the bidding and rules change accordingly – I’m most comfortable sticking by the ‘rules’ I learned when I started to play this game having to change in uncomfortable

[Winstonm]

Jimmy is right. Constructive bidding is not the same as bidding with interference.

In the examples of this thread, the opening bidder stated that if partner responded he would bid again, but not necessarily more than 1N, a simple raise of partner's suit, a rebid of his own or a bid of a lower ranking suit. If he choses a bid other than these, he is showing extra values as he had a choice of bids.

In the other thread, opps interference and partner's response has removed his choices - he has to respond at the 2-level and thus has no choice but to reverse with a minimum hand: AKxx, x, KQxxx, xxx. 1D-2C-2H-P-? Partner has forced him to bid - what else can he do but bid 2S? And if partner is on a 10-count (which he could be), why should 2S even be forcing?