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Cheats on BBO same

#61 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 15:14

Wayne_LV, on Dec 23 2006, 11:41 PM, said:

And yet again you know-it-alls have missed the point entirely.

My main point is cheating is a problem that could be reduced. That is my ONLY point.

And you seem to be missing our point:

You are proposing an extremely draconian set of changes to stamp out cheating:

Eliminate kibitzers.
Create software to monitor all of the boards that get played.
Don't let dummy see any of the hands at the table.
yada, yada, yada

Many of us recognize the existence of cheating. However, we don't believe that the costs associated with trying to decrease the incidence of cheating justifies ruining kibitzing and all the rest...

Furthermore, most of us have found much easier ways to deal with the problem. The simplest system is to self select: Play team games with people you know and trust. Alternatively, create a pairs tournament for a group of friends.

As a side benefit, the standard of play is a lot better.
Alderaan delenda est
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#62 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 15:20

"Let me summarize my opinions on the subject ONE MORE TIME.

1. Cheating does occur in bridge .. all bridge (not all players cheat)
2. Cheating can be reduced
3. Efforts should be made to reduce cheating wherever possible

That is all I am saying, that is all I have ever said. If that is an attitude, then color me sour."

Let me quote you:
"I get a real insight into bridge player's mentality everytime I ever post to one of these threads"
"For the social animals that cannot play without playmates in the sandbox, allow kibbing for rubber bridge and total points games."
"If the answer to all 3 of those is yes and 3. the player has played over 1000 boards in the past month, I guarantee you that player is cheating in some fashion."
"Now before you strart pounding your keyboards in rage as what I am saying let me tell you how I know this to be true. I am ( or was ) a computer programmer (I wrote the original World Series of Poker Simulation) and have a lot of experience doing monte carlo simulations and odds calculations for casinos and gaming companies. I have run simulations of millions and millions of trails to test the probablilites of all kinds of propositions. So when I say I detect a pattern of bidding, leads, and plays that go against the odds, I know of what I speak."
"These measures were taken to REDUCE cheating. If you think otherwise, you are INCREDIBLY naiive."
"If you enjoy a social crap shoot where the outcome is totally meaningless, HAVE AT IT."

Consider yourself colored. The attitude I will color you with is "rude, insulting, and arrogant" rather than "sour", but you may color yourself with that as well, if you like :P

Peter
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#63 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 15:22

"Play team games with people you know and trust. Alternatively, create a pairs tournament for a group of friends."

Richard: these may not be options for Wayne :P

Peter
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#64 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 15:50

pbleighton, on Dec 23 2006, 04:20 PM, said:

Consider yourself colored. The attitude I will color you with is "rude, insulting, and arrogant" rather than "sour", but you may color yourself with that as well, if you like :P

Peter

:D :P
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#65 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 17:06

Well since uday has leaked that BrBr can be used, we catch every single frivilous 7NTxx and similar things that happen in mbc, team games, and tournaments. The people doing this then are turned into abuse. This takes just a few minutes. As some forum members who have done this know, you will be caught if you do this. This isn't instantanous, because Bridgebrowser data is for the most part an average of one or two week behind live data, but everyone of them are found. Doing this in tournaments, gets you banned from tournaments for a while at a minimum.

For the record, out of 3,482,384 hand plays in tournaments/team games since oct 1, 2006 there has been 443 7NTxx contracts, that is 0.01%. Seventh one of thes made, another 208 of them was down onlyu one or two (indicating they were probably bid to make).

In addition, BrBr will do everything Wayne asked for, and much more. List all players sorted by average imps, by average mp, by partnership averages, by estimated lehman ratings, etc. We can find every player averaging so many imps or so many mp or more over any minimum number of boards. We do not use these features to catch cheaters, because, as i said, average imps is not useful if the players self-select or play in mismatched team games. We can do the same looking for just average scores on defense (or offense) or in doubled contracts, or in slams, etc.

Instead we continue a user-reported or TD-reported scheme for investigating possible cheaters. This seems to work, and if we simply checked the top performers, there would be no end to the searches.. and i can tell you that most of the top performers are not cheating... as many of them have been turned in by players who can't recongnize good/normal play from cheating.... and of course, a lot of the cheaters that have been caught were in the top group as well.
--Ben--

#66 User is offline   Wayne_LV 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 17:49

   
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#67 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 18:19

Claiming that every word is taken out of context is not a reasonable discussion - also to "spell cat" and "disussion" can be tricky.

As to the idea, it would be a reasonable option for the table host or TD to be able to click on a "dummy can't see defenders' hands" feature.
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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#68 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 18:23

Wayne_LV, on Dec 23 2006, 06:49 PM, said:

There is evidently no cheating going on. LOL

Not a single poster has suggested that there is no cheating on BBO. In fact, cheating occurs. The problem people have is punishing the innocent to obstnesively stop what you worry about.

Punish the guilty, by catching them, don;t punish the innocent by taking away their rights, which is what you have suggested. Note, you said All I know is those I have reported to BBO have eventually vanished from the scene, And this is true of all true cheaters who are reported to abuse (but many reported are not cheaters)
--Ben--

#69 User is online   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 18:28

Wayne_LV, on Dec 24 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

Am I totally off base here? Is there a sane person reading this thread that would agree that cheating does occur?  Does anyone else realize the impact thet even a small amount of cheating has on the scores?  And am I imagining things when I predict I will be ruthelessly attacked simply for expressing my opinions .... again?

Wayne, you don't attacked for “simply” expressing your opinion. Lots of people express their opinion on the forum.

You get attacked because you act like an asshole.

Your postings are extremely pretentious and you talk down to your audience. This is annoying at the best of times. Its especially bad when your posts contain basic factual mistakes like your guarantee that anyone who averages better than +1 IMP over a large number of boards is cheating.

Worse yet, you don't even try to listen to the points that other people are making. Most of us agree about your basic point. Yes, Virginia, there is cheating going on. It just doesn't bother us that much.

Finally, acting as if we're too dense to understand your point is a very poor way to endear yourself to an audience.
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#70 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 19:59

Quote

OK, I guess you guys live in a different universe, so I will stop trying to spell cat to you.  There is evidently no cheating going on. LOL

is it spelled cat? hmmm... Wow. way to start a civilized post in a civilized discussion. Good job!

Quote

So I suppose eliminating kibbers is a somewhat necessary step after all.

Great idea. Let's then eliminate all the Turks, and Poles and... oh... oh... I know canadians! those sneaky canadians, you never know what it is that they are contemplating... with their beady eyes and detached jaws!!!!

Quote

Now I will anxiously await the barrage of cutting remarks about how stupid I am to think of wanting the dummy to not see the ops cards during the play of the hand.

I've refrained from criticizing this suggestion as i find it mildly worthwhile. On the other hand, when you have four friends playing at a table, trying to learn the game, or at least improve, removing that option makes it virtually impossible to get better by discussing the hands post facto. It is much more annoying to have to go back to movie and click through everything.

Quote

Am I totally off base here? Is there a sane person reading this thread that would agree that cheating does occur?  Does anyone else realize the impact thet even a small amount of cheating has on the scores?  And am I imagining things when I predict I will be ruthelessly attacked simply for expressing my opinions .... again?

Oh yes. RUTHLESS attacks.
damn. thanks for telling me how to spell "CAT"... thanks for making it clear to me that i have some sort of "mentality"
I apologize, clearly you're the one getting attacked. yup. no doubt about it. none whatsoever. Did you even read any of the responses above? seems to me all your posts are identical except for the level of condescension and insults which seem to get worse and worse.

Quote

This has been my experience EVERY time I have ever attempted to post an opinion in this forum and is the reason for my sour attitude.  I think we would all be better served if we could have a reasonable disussion of topics without all the personal attacks.  Notice I have not made reference to any single individual, yet there is no reluctance to attack me personally for no good reason.

Wayne

Have you, perhaps, considered that it isn't your opinion that has met with an unwelcome response, but rather your totally debasing attitude and insulting overtones? hmmmmmmmmmmm????

Suggestion, stop thinking so highly of yourself and maybe others will actually be willing to listen to what you have to say and feel like having a civilized discussion with you.

I think Richard got it right, though i do find that namecalling is typically not befitting a forum like this.
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#71 User is offline   Wayne_LV 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 20:27

   
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#72 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 20:39

"The # 1 reason for losing boards is obvious bidding and play errors. Not judgment errors in close situations, just plain doing things that are obviously wrong. No matter what the field or who the ops are, if I play with few errors I usually (not always) win. If my partner or I make a number of obvious errors we lose (almost always). I find a definite correlation between how well or how poorly partner and I play and my win/loss averages. You have to play pretty damn well and you have to have a lot of gifts to average 1 IMP per board in any venue of bridge. Maybe there are players that can consistently do that, but I have yet to see one.

Perhaps you might give me the names of several so I can study their bidding and play?"

Justin Lall (jlall) stated that he had done it. He is a world champion, I believe him.

Peter
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#73 User is offline   Wayne_LV 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 21:36

   
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#74 User is offline   Robert 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 21:43

Hi everyone

I was asked by a former bridge student of mine to get some of my group to play in her home team league. Teams that she had played on had been the doormats of the league for some time. I asked two other bridge players to join us on her team and we won the first evening 123-3 a little over 4 IMPs per board. We were not cheating, they were simply outclassed.

Several decades ago, I played with another group against the local best team(some of which have world championships to their credit) We lost by 76 Imps during that session. They were not cheating, they were just that much better.

I also played a number of times with an out of town partner and we normally scored 70+% whenever he came into town. We were not cheating, he was simply the best player that I have ever had as a partner.

On OK Bridge I played several hundred hours and rarely felt that 'something' was amiss. I happened to be winning almost an IMP a board while trying to learn a new system. I had a good partner and decent methods. If we continued to improve would that be proof that we were cheating or simply getting our partnership in tune?

Regards,
Robert
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#75 User is offline   uday 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 21:51

While we're on the subject - the best way to report a suspected you-know-what is to drop us a line at abuse@you-know-where.com and supply at least a couple of hands (references into myhands are fine)
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#76 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 22:05

"Perhaps he has, if you say it is true, it must be true."

Very nice. A excellent example of your powers of persuasion, and your skill with the English language.

"But currently he is averaging about .31 IMP per board on BBO. While that is an enviable win rate and I am green with jealosy, it is a tad short of 1 IMP per board."

Justin (and I) used the past tense. Please pay attention to the posts you are attempting to respond to.

Let me explain something to you. There are many levels of bridge ability. You obviously think of yourself as a good player, and compared to the the average duplicate player, you may well be. You may be the stud of your local club.

World-class players, on the other hand, are further away in ability from strong club players than the strong club players are from the club duffers. You apparently don't realize this. I'm guessing it's because you like to think of yourself as a near-champion player, and don't want to admit to yourself that you are not.

Of course, if I am wrong, you may list your national and international victories and top 3 finishes, and I will stand corrected.

Another issue: your age. Looking at your profile, I was truly shocked to find that you are 64. From your posts, I was guessing that you were a socially maladjusted under 25 year old.

Obviously, I was wrong about you.

BTW, this isn't meant as a slap to our under-25 contingent of posters, who are generally quite well behaved. YOUR parents obviously brought you up right.

Peter
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#77 User is offline   uday 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 22:18

Wayne seems to find himself on one side on the discussion with more than one person on the other, but lets be polite, pls. Feel free to edit out any insults that might have slipped out, we won't complain :)
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Posted 2006-December-23, 22:53

First, the post is correct. Jlall is two time-reigning World Junior Champion. See this website for details. Technically, over the last 1000 boards, justin is not averaging 1 imp per board. In fact, his current average over 4404 boards is 0.69. There is a reason for this, he plays a lot of team matches against evenly or closely evenly matched teams.

But let's deal with the statement that no one could average +1 imp over a 1000 boards without "help".

Quote

And I still believe an average win rate of over 1 IMP per board over 1000 hands is impossible without some form of help, be it cheating or psychic powers or devine intervention.


Here, I will show you data from OKBridge for the partnership of papi and snabu... In the one database for them I checked (bridgebrowser online has a papi database with all the hands he played on okbridge over several years). This partnership played thousands of hands, i stopped at 10323 hands and their average was +1.02 imp/board. I hope you are wise enough not to suggest this partnership was cheating.

I am leary of posting similar numbers for bbo members, since the implication you state is that to have those numbers they must be cheating. Also, it is hard to find partnerships with 1000 boards together, as i have to search multiple databases (BBO plays more hands in one month than okbridge does in a year, so each few months results in the creation of a new BrBR database for BBO data). I will however give you three names from the BBO.

SusieQ -- a very nice canadian and recent gold star, 1324 hands, average imps, 1.49. A lehmans of 51.37. (BTW, dank, susie's regular partner averaged 1.36).

luchi2004 -- an Argentine gold star who won the South American Open Championships, has played 4444 hands, averaging 1.15 imps, a lehmans in the mid 60's

winkle -- a forum poster here and nice guy from the Boston area I believe (and non-gold star), he has 2112 imp hands, averaging 1.01 imps.

I can assure you these players are not cheating. Now, obviously, as uday pointed out, cheaters pop up to the top of such list. The really high-and-mighty cheaters go much higher, and have averages in the 2 to 3 imps per board range. These people are easily caught and banned.

However, there are literrally 1000's of bbo users with averages above 1 imp that don't cheat (and many that did and are now banned). You simply can not look at myhands (or bridgebrowser) and average imps and decide guilt or innocence. You seem to continue to overlook the fact that some people self-select their opponents (friends, students, favorite victims). If I were to always play against some of my friends, i would average well above 1 imp/board, if I were to always play against others, i would average below 0 imps. This is EXCERBATED when playing in team games.

I've heard the argument that if "world class players" can't average 1 imp per board, how can crappy players do that if they are not cheating. The reason is simple. The world class players self-select to play against other excellent players (either in team matches or main room). The same thing happens. If a bunch of bad playeres play against each other, the better of the bad ones will have a high imp average.. imp scale shows relatively difference between the playing pairs. In the long run the better pair wins, and size of the win depends upon the difference in the relative ability. You keep thinking random opponents, and want to turn off some software features. People keep telling you that BBO is a social site and friends hang togehter and play together. This self-selection defeats your concept. There are beginner/intermediates who play in the BIL who average more than 1 imp because the people they play against are much weaker than they are.
--Ben--

#79 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2006-December-23, 22:54

pbleighton, on Dec 23 2006, 11:05 PM, said:

BTW, this isn't meant as a slap to our under-25 contingent of posters, who are generally quite well behaved. YOUR parents obviously brought you up right.

Peter

yes it is!

not that i can claim to be under 25 anymore... but from all the mal-adjusted under former 25 year olds... bah!

I really don't get it why people take this game as seriously as they do.
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Posted 2006-December-24, 00:02

Wayne_LV, on Dec 23 2006, 10:36 PM, said:

But currently he is averaging about .31 IMP per board on BBO.

As someone stated I used past tense. I now don't play against unknown opps or opps I feel cannot be competitive. In team matches I almost always give myself the weakest teammates of the 4 pairs with a few exceptions. I also play with friends who are not that great which I used to not do. I also play almost only team games now with barometer as opposed to main bridge club (which I used to play exclusively). This leads to some swinging towards the end which increases the chances of winning the match but usually causes us to lose by more. This leads to a lower imp average.

I assure you that if I play with only my best say 3 partners against random people in the main bridge club for 1000 boards I will average over 1.5 imps a board. I would be willing to bet on this, so long as you feel like I would not cheat. Too bad the myhands records don't go back for several years, or you could see but I really don't have any reason to lie about imp average.

As far as flagging these kinds of partnerships with very high imp averages to a yellow or something, I think thats a good idea but I'm not sure how practical it would be for yellows to go through thousands of partnerships hand databases and try and analyze if they are cheating. Yellows are volunteers and their resources are typically spread thin already as far as I can tell.
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