[Wiste1]

Playing 12-14NT opening.

1NT - (pass) - 2♣ - (2♥ or 2♠) - ?

What do you think is best to use dobl from opener as now?

2♣ = Stayman, at least invite or weak with both major

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

since 2C does not promise strength,
penalty, i.e showing at least a 4 carder
is the only playable way, at least in my
opinion.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

I don´t see how penalty is playable opposite a responder who could be weak with both majors, it "must" be take out.

Even if, by magic they play in a 5-0 fit and you happen to have 4-4 in their suit, do you really believe, that you will beat it with 14 opposite 1 or 2 HCPs?
And will the opponents peacefully pass and play their misfit if you have a good chance to beat it?

I think take out is much better:
If Pd has their suit AND some tricks, he can pass.
If pd has the hand with both majors but is really weak, he can bid the other major.

[helene_t]

I think penalty is safe. Even if partner is weak, we should have a fair chance of defeating them with usually 8 trumps. T/O would mean that we can't penalize them when opener has neither major and responder has opp's major.

[whereagles]

I think you can play it both ways.

[gwnn]

I don't like to have a "fair chance" of beating their potentially game-partial. Takeout should be more frequent and more useful.

Besides, who am I to make an unilateral decision about penalizing them when my pd knows almost as much about my hand than I do?

[csdenmark]

Wiste1, on Jan 19 2007, 06:26 AM, said:

Playing 12-14NT opening.

1NT - (pass) - 2♣ - (2♥ or 2♠) - ?

What do you think is best to use dobl from opener as now?

2♣ = Stayman, at least invite or weak with both major

Opener is asked for preferences - so DBL is a non-cooperative call which ought not to be used.

[glen]

Wiste1, on Jan 18 2007, 11:26 PM, said:

Playing 12-14NT opening.

1NT - (pass) - 2♣ - (2♥ or 2♠) - ?

What do you think is best to use dobl from opener as now?

2♣ = Stayman, at least invite or weak with both major

First, I'll assume with game forcing values, that 2♣ promises a major.

Best use is passable takeout but easier use is penalty.

The takeout double does not promise the other major - just shows a hand that wants to compete if responder does not have overcaller's major.

So 1NT-2♣ (2♠);-Dbl-3NT still shows 4♥s. A hand with four ♠s and game forcing values will pass 2♠ doubled. 1NT-2♣ (2♠);-Dbl-3♠ also shows 4♥s, but also notes that responder is not providing any help stopping ♠s if the final contract is 3NT.

If your partnership has not had this discussion then do not play double as takeout.

If responder has both majors and is weak, when hearing the takeout double they will know the opponents have at best a 7 card trump fit, but have decent values. So responder if quite weak will usually run to the other major, sometimes landing in just a 7 card fit, but with close to invite values will pass the double. The other thing responder will worry if less than invite is about how exposed are responder's values in the overcaller's major. The reason this is not worried about so much when invite or better, is that overcaller's partner will then usually be both relatively pointless and have few cards in overcaller's suit, so overcaller will not have the communication to get to dummy much to play through responder's holdings.

Playing penalty doubles are much easier. If opener doubles, responder closes eyes, opens them at end of hand, and if doubled contract makes, questions how opener can double for penalty with a weak notrump. So a comfortable situation for responder. Opener meanwhile can say, "hey, you know I just had 12-14 points, did you expect the world's fair for my penalty double?". So good position as well for the post mortem exchange. The final words will be something like "maybe we should play takeout doubles there." Weak notrumpers are never allowed to say "maybe we should switch to strong notrumps?". If this ever happens, please phone Kokish for an immediate intervention.

[glen]

- -

[FrancesHinden]

This thread comes round every now and again. There is no obviously "right" answer, but after a few years of playing around with various options, we have ended up playing double as penalties.

Whatever you play, you are in danger if partner has the weak-with-both-majors option: either you play double as penalties, and you might have to defend 2Mx, or you play double as take-out... and you might have to play a 4-4 fit at the 3-level with a minority of the high cards which won't be pleasant either. If one of these is a real worry, then play that opener has to pass whatever his hand is (or at least that opener has to pass a 2S overcall but can e.g. double 2H with 4-4 in the majors).

[jtfanclub]

Wiste1, on Jan 18 2007, 11:26 PM, said:

Playing 12-14NT opening.

1NT - (pass) - 2♣ - (2♥ or 2♠) - ?

What do you think is best to use dobl from opener as now?

2♣ = Stayman, at least invite or weak with both major

Penalty. If partner has the weak both majors hand, he will leave it in. If he doesn't, he should have no trouble describing his hand in the space left.

I can't believe somebody would suggest you shouldn't use the X...that cuts your possible number of auctions enormously. Using it for something, no matter what the meaning, is far superior to using it for nothing.

[pclayton]

I don't see the logic in playing this double as takeout. Assuming responder has:

1) Weakish with both majors
2) Invitational with one or both majors
3) GF with one or both majors
4) An invitational 2N hand

I want to play 2 of a major doubled with a 4 card stack over the bidder opposite all of these hand types. By the way, would any of the penalty doublers double with a modest 3 card stack and a max?

If your 2♣ response can be a weak hand with 4 of a major and 6 of a minor, then you might have a little trouble as responder must choose between sitting and pulling to 3 minor.

On a side note, we play Keri and this double is penalty with at least diamond tolerance, if not support.

[glen]

pclayton, on Jan 19 2007, 11:53 AM, said:

I don't see the logic in playing this double as takeout. Assuming responder has:

1) Weakish with both majors
2) Invitational with one or both majors
3) GF with one or both majors
4) An invitational 2N hand

I want to play 2 of a major doubled with a 4 card stack over the bidder opposite all of these hand types.

The logic is that there is another chance for our side - on 2, 3, and 4 responder is to double if s/he would want opener to pass with the 4 card stack. While responder can't double with 1, the opponents are in a bad spot so leave them there and don't give overcaller a chance to introduce a minor.

[P_Marlowe]

Codo, on Jan 19 2007, 04:26 AM, said:

I don´t see how penalty is playable opposite a responder who could be weak with both majors, it "must" be take out.

Even if, by magic they play in a 5-0 fit and you happen to have 4-4 in their suit, do you really believe, that you will beat it with 14 opposite 1 or 2 HCPs?
<snip>

And do you really believe, that they would
play 2M in a 5-0 fit?
Some times, ... yes, but some times not.
I may rely on the opponents to have a SOS
XX available.

And weak, does not 1 or 2 HCP, it simply
means less than a invite and holding a hand,
which prefers to play in a suit.
It is even possible, that you have an invite in
case you discover a fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe