[twcho]

Simple uncontested auction:
No So
1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
2♠?

What is the meaning of 2♠?

Is it a fragment bid showing 3 cards in ♠ or asking for ♠ stopper?

[mike777]

2s shows extras and a fragment...very forward going

[jtfanclub]

twcho, on Jan 24 2007, 11:22 PM, said:

Simple uncontested auction:
No So
1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
2♠?

What is the meaning of 2♠?

Is it a fragment bid showing 3 cards in ♠ or asking for ♠ stopper?

Huh. Mike says it's fragment with extras, and I tend to believe him on these things. Nonetheless, had I not read that, I would have just said 'extras'. There aren't a whole lot of forcing bids left in this auction, and sometime I bid the 4th suit as an 'emergency' force even if I'm not playing 4sf.

[xx1943]

1♦ 1♥ 2♣ shows a minimum opener with 5♦s and 4♣s, and is not forcing? Right?
2♦ is a signoff-bid.
2♠ must be a game-invite to 3NT.

I would treat 2♠ as FSF asking for ♠-stopper. If you had the ♠s stopped yourself, you would bid 2NT.

Openers distribution must be 3154 2254 or (unlikely) 3064 2164.

[the hog]

2S is a stopper probe, looking for a NT contract. As responder is weak, opener shows a good hand. It has nothing to do with showing a fragment.

If you play that 2C is forcing, as many here do, then 2S could also be an advance cue bid. It is a very rare hand that would find that though, because of the simple preference given by responder.

[EricK]

The meaning of 2♠ depends on the meaning of all your other bids - 2♠ is a catch-all bid for any strong hand not covered by another bid. So ask yourself what 2♥, 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, 3♥, 3♠, 3NT etc would show, and anything else which doesn't Pass is a 2♠ bid.

[brianshark]

Surely a stopper ask?

[whereagles]

There's a general rule good for situations like this:

"When pard makes a bid that is not discussed, it should be taken as NATURAL."

Simple no? In this case 2♠ bid should therefore be a fragment, with invitational+ strength, of course (around 16-18, maybe more).

[helene_t]

Fourth suit from opener is usually (semi)-natural so that is probably what it should be in the absense of discussion.

In this particular auction we can't have a 4-4 fit in spades allthough we could have a playable 3-4 fit. An alternative treatment is to play 2♠ as a strong 3♣ or 3♦ bid (or a weak one if you like).

With one IRL partner I play this as a generic game force (as 2♣ was unlimited in our system).

[ArcLight]

Openers 2♣ rebid showed a minimum hand, did it not?
Around 13-15 total points (HCP + length)

How can he all of a sudden have extras? Was the 2♣ bid wrong?

Responder showed a minimum hand as well, did he not? With the 2♦ preference.
Can't responder have 6 HCP, with 5 ♥, 4 ♦, and 2-2?

How will 3NT make? It doesn't look like the partnership has near 25 HCP.
Maybe a long ♦ suit? What would openers hand be?
3=0=6=4 or 3=1=5=4

But I don't see how opener can have extras based on the initial bidding.

Can there be anotehr explanation?
Can Openers hand have improved with ♦ support?
Something like:
♠ x
♥ x
♦ A Q J x x x
♣ A Q x x x

I think The hope is if pard has a ♠ stopper, and ♦ support, there are (hopefully, maybe with a finesse) 6♦ tricks, 1 Club tricks, 1-2 major suit tricks (in pards hands), and if that doesn't materialize, the Club finesse.
This seems less than 50%


I'm curious what the "correct" answer is


>If you play that 2C is forcing, as many here do,

Using 2/1 or SAYC is that really forcing?

Then how would you bid 1-2-5-5 hands? Or 2-2-5-4 with 2 weak doubletons in teh majors? Do you bid 1NT on that?
I always thought that was showing a minimum

[Codo]

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2007, 10:00 PM, said:

Openers 2♣ rebid showed a minimum hand, did it not?
Around 13-15 total points (HCP + length)

No it shows 11-18 in many systems.
So 2 Spade def. shows extras.

I am from the schooll that the 4. suit asks about a stopper and is no fragment. Else, what will you do with f.e. xx,A,AKxxxx,Akxx?
I would love to ask for a stopper.

[helene_t]

Codo, on Jan 25 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jan 25 2007, 10:00 PM, said:

Openers 2♣ rebid showed a minimum hand, did it not?
Around 13-15 total points (HCP + length)

No it shows 11-18 in many systems.
So 2 Spade def. shows extras.

I am from the schooll that the 4. suit asks about a stopper and is no fragment. Else, what will you do with f.e. xx,A,AKxxxx,Akxx?
I would love to ask for a stopper.

Indeed it shows 11-18 or some such in SA, Acol, SEF etc.

Responder's 2♦ is limited to 9 HCP or some such so if we assume that we need 25 HCPs for game, 3♦ now becomes 16-18. I think that's playable.

ArcLight said:

Using 2/1 or SAYC is that really forcing?

In SAYC, of course not. In 2/1, depends on the 2/1 flavor but with a random partner assume it to be 11-18 natural.

[SoTired]

I disagree with others... I think this is a 3-card suit, and opener patterned out.
It is forcing one round (responder can't pass), but not game-forcing

If opener is say 17 hcp and 2254 and no spade stopper, opener bids 3D not 2S.

[jtfanclub]

SoTired, on Jan 25 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

I disagree with others... I think this is a 3-card suit, and opener patterned out.
It is forcing one round (responder can't pass), but not game-forcing

If opener is say 17 hcp and 2254 and no spade stopper, opener bids 3D not 2S.

Tough to go back to 2NT when partner has a 4-5-2-2 6 count if you bid 3♦ with a 2-2-5-4 17 count.

If this is a pattern out bid, how can it be forcing (assuming you don't play 2♣ as forcing)? If partner has crap with both majors, would have passed 2♣ if his clubs were better than his diamonds, and 2♠ shows 3 spades, why wouldn't he just pass?

[SoTired]

jtfanclub, on Jan 25 2007, 09:52 AM, said:

SoTired, on Jan 25 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

I disagree with others... I think this is a 3-card suit, and opener patterned out.
It is forcing one round (responder can't pass), but not game-forcing

If opener is say 17 hcp and 2254 and no spade stopper, opener bids 3D not 2S.

Tough to go back to 2NT when partner has a 4-5-2-2 6 count if you bid 3♦ with a 2-2-5-4 17 count.

If this is a pattern out bid, how can it be forcing (assuming you don't play 2♣ as forcing)? If partner has crap with both majors, would have passed 2♣ if his clubs were better than his diamonds, and 2♠ shows 3 spades, why wouldn't he just pass?

I guess that is correct, responder could pass. but opener could also have 3064 and 3D will make a better contract than 2S

[ArcLight]

I found this, from my notes from 3.5 years ago when I was learning SA.
Its eitehr from Root & Pavliceks Commonsense Bidding, or Fred Gitelmans "How to bid" program available on the ACBL website.



Opener’s rebid with a sound opening bid
With a sound opening bid (16-18 points) opener must choose from one of the following rebids. Again listed in order of priority.

...

With no support for partner’s suit, no reverse bid to make, no extra length in your original suit, make a non-jump rebid in a new 4-card suit.


So I guess 1♦ 1♥, 2♣ can indeed show 16-18 total points (HCP + length)

I now assume that opener has the 18 and is paterning out.
Something like 3-1-5-4 or 3-0-6-4 or 3-0-5-5
I dont think opener has a good spade stopper, and maybe not any spade stopper.

I don't think we have enough for a minor suit game, and pard is trying for 3NT

[inquiry]

It is not game force, or opener would have bid something MORE than 2♣ at his first opportunity. 2♦ "raise" was really weak preference. 2♠ also can not be 4♠ (else, bid 1♠ or 2♠ over 1♥). So 2♠ is a fragment (think three spades to some stregnth) and top of the 2♣ range. In general this is a game try if RESPONDER is at the top of a 2♦ weak preference.

Remember, responder has not shown ANYTHING more than a weak 1♥ response so far (remember 2♦ showed nothing extra at all). Thus, there is reason to assume that this bid is not even forcing. It seems to me that it is possible to play precisely 2♠ on the odd 4-5-2-2 weak hand by responder where 2♦ was "false" preference. Further, I suspect responders next bid of either 2NT/3♦ should end the auction.

I guess 2♠ is probably "bidders remorse" where opener has a very strong 3-1-5-4 and didn't want to jump to 3♣ in a four card suit, nor rebid 2NT with a stiff heart. But even then, he can not force to game opposite a 2♦ simple preference.

Having said this, many people use it as 4th suit forcing. They do this with great 6 card diamond suit and no spade, where a raise to 3D would work. They do this with 5-5 in the minors where a 3C rebid over 2D would work. They do this heart support (3 card) where a 2H bid would have worked. They do it with spade stoppers and two cards (like AQ) where 2NT would have worked. Remember, a 3♦ raise will have partner look at his spades for a possible 3NT contract wtihout the need for a 2♠ fourth suit forcing looking for spade stopper.

I have used BridgeBrowser to look up some of these hands (bridgebrowser lets you go through 2ND bid up to responder, so finding openers 3rd bid means finding all auctions thtt start up to 2D preference and then don't finish in 2D or 2H.

Here are a few typical hands that I discovered, for what they are worth....
KQx void KJ9xx AJxx (I t hink pass would be better)
86 x AQJxx AKTxx (I don't agree, 3C is the correct bid if not pass)
K Kxx KQJxx KJ98 (I would have raised 1H to 2H, 2S is crazy)
Txx x AKJxx AKQx (I would like better spades, but ok, most raised 3D instead)
AKT J AJxxx Axxx (I would probably have passed 2D, msot bid 2NT)
xx Kx AKQxx KQxx (clearly thinking 2S is 4th suit forcing, most bid 3D)
AKJ x KTxxx AKTx (about right)
KJT T AKQxx A9xx (about right)
K Ax AKQxx QJ9xx (alerted as 4th suit, clearly 3C is better, more descriptive)
AK9 x JTxxx AQJT (push, but leads to perfect fit game in ♦, opposite no waste)
KQ K KQJxxx KJxx (pass was in order, lots and lots of 2♠ bids on this one)
x KQT QTxxx AK42 (I can't explain why not 2♥ over 1♥ or 2♦)
xx x AKxxx AKQx (I guess 4th suit forcing, lead to 3D down two, vul)
xx AQ AQJxx Qxxx (alerted as 4th suit, pass is clearly right)
Ax xx AKQxx Axxx (2NT seems right to me, but 2S or 2NT works)
Qx x AKQxxx AQTx (2S alerted as 4th suit forcing, 3D raise works too)

[whereagles]

Nice explanation and references there, ben

[twcho]

Very nice and detail explanation by Ben. I am taken by it. The NS hand was:

No So
1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
2♠ 3♠
3N

---

I held south hand and after 2♠, which I took it as stopper asking, I tried 3♠ intend to show 4 cards raise and my pd end in 3NT and I was happy to pass. Luckily this hand we still have an happy ending in that although opp find the ♥ lead, it broke 44 and subsequently my pd guessed ♦Q to make the contract.

Clearly, 4♠ or 5♦ is a more superior contract. How should we arrive at the par contract? Was my choice of 1♥ bid an ill one?

[inquiry]

twcho, on Jan 25 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

Very nice and detail explanation by Ben. I am taken by it. The NS hand was:

No So
1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♦
2♠ 3♠
3N

---

I held south hand and after 2♠, which I took it as stopper asking, I tried 3♠ intend to show 4 cards raise and my pd end in 3NT and I was happy to pass. Luckily this hand we still have an happy ending in that although opp find the ♥ lead, it broke 44 and subsequently my pd guessed ♦Q to make the contract.

Clearly, 4♠ or 5♦ is a more superior contract. How should we arrive at the par contract? Was my choice of 1♥ bid an ill one?

The biddign was fine, except with xxxx in hearts and your partners 2♠ bid, you have to pull 3NT. Partner has at most one heart, you have no wastage. Rather you play 4♠ or 5♦ is up to you and your feeling about the moysein fit. I think I would have tried for 4♠ at MP. I would have explored 5♦ for imps (partner will not be 3-2-4-4).. so he will be 3-1-5-4 or 3-0-6-4 perhaps).