[pclayton]

Had this sequence come up last night:

Opponents are silent:

1♠ - 2♣
2♠ - 2N
4♠

What kind of hand do you expect for 4♠? What kind of hand would you expect 3♠ to show?

FYI: The partnership does not play fast arrival. Other jumps to game are "picture" based, although this specific sequence isn't designed as such.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Apr 25 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

Long very strong spades, 1 loser at best, not much extra. AKJTxxx Qxx xx x would fit the bill perfectly.

What is 4♠ over 2♣ and how does it differ from this auction?

I don't disagree with your answer, just wondering.

[whereagles]

Weakish, but not hopeless, hand with long broken spades or thereabouts.

[jdonn]

Lol TY Justin

my fault I should have said "hey, Justin!"

[mr1303]

Is this a 2/1 context? In other words, is 2NT here forcing?

[cnszsun]

Here are what i think:
1.
1♠-2♣
2♠-xx
3♠
Most play 2♠ as catchcall, so you have to bid 3♠ to show your 6th ♠ and scattered values.
2.
1♠-2♣
3♠
Set ♠ suit as trump and extras.
3.
1♠-2♣
2♠-xx
4♠
Long ♠ suit, but not much useful cards in other 3 suits.

[fred]

For me here are the ways that opener can say "4S is a possible contract even if you have a void in spades":

1S-2C-3S=Slam try with solid spades (or maybe missing one top honor)

1S-2C-4S=Flawed preempt with very strong spades (something like KQJ10xxx Axx xx x)

1S-2C-2S-2NT-4S=Minimum opening with moderate spades and typically a lot of shape. Something like QJ109xxx Axx Kxx void.

1S-2C-2S-2NT-3S-3NT-4S=Better hand with moderate spades and typically a lot of shape. Add a Queen or so to the above hand.

1S-2C-2S-2NT-3S-3NT-4x=self-cue in support of spades. A very strong hand but spades not suitable for 1S-2C-3S. Something like AQ109xxx AQx Ax x.

1S-2C-3NT=6 very strong spades, 4-card club support, minimum hand. Something like: AQJ10xx xx x KJxx

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

fred, on Apr 25 2007, 07:48 PM, said:

For me here are the ways that opener can say "4S is a possible contract even if you have a void in spades":

1S-2C-3S=Slam try with solid spades (or maybe missing one top honor)

1S-2C-4S=Flawed preempt with very strong spades (something like KQJ10xxx Axx xx x)

1S-2C-2S-2NT-4S=Minimum opening with moderate spades and typically a lot of shape. Something like QJ109xxx Axx Kxx void.

1S-2C-2S-2NT-3S-3NT-4S=Better hand with moderate spades and typically a lot of shape. Add a Queen or so to the above hand.

1S-2C-2S-2NT-3S-3NT-4x=self-cue in support of spades. A very strong hand but spades not suitable for 1S-2C-3S. Something like AQ109xxx AQx Ax x.

1S-2C-3NT=6 very strong spades, 4-card club support, minimum hand. Something like: AQJ10xx xx x KJxx

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I like this a lot, because with the exception of the 3NT convention, all of the bids are completely intuitive.

[dcvetkov]

Jlall, on Apr 25 2007, 06:42 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 25 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

Jlall, on Apr 25 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

Long very strong spades, 1 loser at best, not much extra. AKJTxxx Qxx xx x would fit the bill perfectly.

What is 4♠ over 2♣

Non existant.

Does 4S over 2C really not exist?
What about fast arrival, no first or second control in the unbid suit, and semi solid spades.

I think some 6-3-2-2 or 7-2-2-2 minimal opening may fit

KQJ10xx Qxx Ax xx
Reponder is warned to proceed toward slam with caution.

It does consume a lot of space, but descriptive, just wondering.

[mike777]

dcvetkov, on Apr 26 2007, 12:05 AM, said:

Jlall, on Apr 25 2007, 06:42 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 25 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

Jlall, on Apr 25 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

Long very strong spades, 1 loser at best, not much extra. AKJTxxx Qxx xx x would fit the bill perfectly.

What is 4♠ over 2♣

Non existant.

Does 4S over 2C really not exist?
What about fast arrival, no first or second control in the unbid suit, and semi solid spades.

I think some 6-3-2-2 or 7-2-2-2 minimal opening may fit

KQJ10xx Qxx Ax xx
Reponder is warned to proceed toward slam with caution.

It does consume a lot of space, but descriptive, just wondering.

What are you talking about...you have a first round control in the unbid suit yes?
what is the auction?

[dcvetkov]

Ok lets try again;)

Maybe I was doing it half asleep

Does this hand qualify for this auction?

1S - 2 C
4S


AKQJxx Qxx xx xx or AKQJxxx Qx xx xx

Solid or semisolid spades, no controls in unbid suits, no slam interest. less then 3 clubs.

[whereagles]

Fred, I think you're trying to fill-in too many holes. I pretty much doubt a random pard will make the same exact associations you mentioned... heck, I doubt it even if pard is non random.. lol.

[pclayton]

We are a regular partnership, and I think Fred's rules are very sensible, although I don't think the 3N rebid gels well with what we play.

We play a 12-14 1NT, but we've chosen a 2N rebid by opener still needs to show 12-14 balanced with a flaw, so we still play that 3N shows the 15-17. It seems a hand like: AKQT9x, x, xx, Axxx (which is what I think Fred is suggesting for 3N) can be dealt with by a 3♠ rebid, and then 4 or 5 ♣ over anything. Better yet, I'd probably splinter this hand.

My actual hand was KQ98xxx, Ax, Axxx, void. 3♠ over 2N felt more like a 6=3=3=1 with mangy spades, so my reasoning was the jump showed better spades, but not solid or a one loser suit. Pard had the Nuts: Ax, Kxxx, KQ, AKJxx. We are cold for 7 anything, but still received an average for opting for 6N instead of 6♠.

I suppose this hand qualifies for 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2N - 3♠ - 3N - 4♠; although pard would likely just take over with 4N over 3♠.

[abont]

4S bad

[fred]

whereagles, on Apr 26 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

Fred, I think you're trying to fill-in too many holes. I pretty much doubt a random pard will make the same exact associations you mentioned... heck, I doubt it even if pard is non random.. lol.

I am not suggesting that these definitions are "standard" or that one should assume they are in place when playing with a random partner.

The purpose of my post was to describe what I play with my regular partner. Sorry if I was not clear about that.

As for the question "what is standard for these sequences?", I have no idea.

About "trying to fill too many holes", the holes exist - you can either try to fill them or not. If you don't fill the holes then it is dangerous to use sequences that end in a hole.

IMO serious partnerships should attempt to define common auctions (ie fill holes).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

dcvetkov, on Apr 26 2007, 07:49 AM, said:

Ok lets try again;)

Maybe I was doing it half asleep

Does this hand qualify for this auction?

1S - 2 C
4S


AKQJxx Qxx xx xx or AKQJxxx Qx xx xx

Solid or semisolid spades, no controls in unbid suits, no slam interest. less then 3 clubs.

No. You don't want to go above 3NT (which could easily be the only making game contract) when you have a hand like this.

Rebid 2S. If partner rebids 2NT raise him to 3NT (and be thrilled that the auction has gone this way).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[FrancesHinden]

You can't say what is or isn't standard without defining your basic system.

How far was 2C forcing?
In SAYC responder's 2NT on the second round isn't forcing, so

1S - 2C
2S - 2NT
3S

is a weak hand with a load of spades, and opener needs to bid 4S to play in game.

[pclayton]

2/1 context. 2N is forcing.