[luckyloser]

i shall not give any details of the hand, because that already may disturb the outcome of the poll, i just ask a theoretical question. you play natural sayc at intermediate level (you, opps, tourney).
we are red, they green.

what kinds of hands may opener in 1st seat have to open

3s and 4s.

what do you expect in the terms of distribution (onesuiter, 2suiter, else), suit lengths, losers, playing tricks, quick tricks and highcard-points when p opens 3 or 4 s?

suppose p opens 3s, what do you need to raise to 4?

as you play in anintermediate game, do not expect expert treatment by anyone at the table, just logical bridge. would there be any difference if you were in an expert circle?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The following assumes red vs. green vulnerability.

#1 being red vs. green, a preempt promises
at most -2, if one plays MP, you should be
more conservative with your estimation,
but not mutch.
Also be aware, it they dbl 4S, you will quite
often play 4Sx.
Translating this to LTC => 6 looser / 5 looser,
in case of doubt add a looser
This may mean, that you may have to open 2S with
KQJxxxx xx xx xx.

#2 partner should know, what he wants to
achieve, if he bids 4S with intention to make, he
should have 3 tricks (any top honor in spades,
Aces, shortage + adequate trump support, i.e.
2 in case of a void, 3 in case of a single), if he
intends to preempt he should have at least one
trick (see above) and at most 2 tricks in defence,
because the preemptor may hold 1 dev. trick as well,
with 2 sure defencive tricks he should pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mcphee]

Good question. I very often see pre-empts misused (IMO). My suggestion to newer players when considering a 3 level pre-empt, never have an A or K outside your suit, in first and second seat have a good suit that will encourage your partner to bid 3NT based on the fact you have no winners outside your length. The vulnerability is not a major consideration to me except when adverse, I am not anxious to go for 500 when the opps game is worth only 420 or 400.

4 of a major is a different ball game. Often and 8 card suit, or perhaps 2 suited with less than opening values. I have open 4 of a major many times when 6-5.

Another idea for players is to not strain so much to count points, it's tricks that are the real issue.

[Gerben42]

Vuln. 1st or 2nd seat I like my 3m preempts to PROMISE 2 of the top 3. For 3M the suit may also be headed by AJT or so.

I think 6M - 4m hands may open 3M also.

Vulnerable the hand needs 7 playing tricks, or perhaps 6 with a resonably possible 7th.

How about POINTS? Can you open 3x with rule-of-20 hands? Sure, if they have little defense:

Scoring: IMP

---

Vulnerable I much prefer 3♠ to 1. Gets your hand off your chest, and maybe they finesse ♥ wrong

When do you raise to 4? If you think either we make game or they make game, basically.

[Fluffy]

vul vs not...

good 7 card suit for 3

good 8 card suit for 4, or maybe a good 7-4

[luckyloser]

1st seat, red vs green, mps that is the most dangerous situation for preempts! true it has become usual in expert circles to bid rather frisky preempts but at our level here especially a spade preempt (particularly 4) will get dbled by opps for sheer lack of room to maneuvre as marlowe pointed out.

i therefore think it is best to be very conservative. a good 7card suit would not be enough to preempt with 3s for me. i agree that around 5-6 losers is the correct strength for 3s (with some reserves at mps - so not much more than 5) and surely not more than 4 at the 4 level, simply because 4s can (and will) be dbled for penalties directly.

what sorts of hands do qualify? surely a onesuiter with 9 cards in the suit but alas such hands do not come up often. so in most cases it will be a two-suiter.

responder has a rather simple task, he counts his Aces, trump honors, shortnesses and supported Ks and Qs. if that adds up to around 2+ tricks he can bid 4s to make after partners 3s preempt. in many cases p can guess the shortness of opener and discount values there.

now it is time to reveal the hand in question:
KQT9xxxx,-,K9865,x

what would you open? i opened 3s because the hand has a hole in s (no J!), an unsupported K of d only even though i think 4s would be acceptable (with the d A instead or the s J i would open 4s of course). it all depends on fitting d honors!

if p has xxx,xxxxx,QJx,xx 4s is a favorite, with x,AKQJx,xxx,KQJx even 3s is too high. but that is what preempts are all about!

i did a simulation with p holding less than 13 hcps with which i supposed he would raise to 4. it showed that 4s was less than 40%!

i do not like 1s or pass (how can i later persuade p that i have such a freak? - maybe zia can?!) and really hate 2s. the field was almost evenly divided between the 5 possible bids. all those who started the low road got intervention and were pushed to game. one table passed it out!!!!

p had AJ,xxxxx,xx,AQTx and passed. 4s however made (i calculate it is about a 55 % favorite to make) and we got a near zero! so p asked several real experts (bergen, kaplan, stewart..). they agreed that the hand was too strong or at least very strong for a 3s call but they did not agree on the best opening (pass, 1s, 4s). some of them would have raised 3s to 4.

my thoughts are that it is no tragedy to miss a 55% game at mps and i have not heard any good argument to change my opening bid, also i would have raised with 2 As, 2 trump honors and a fitting Q . in fact the result confirmed me, if a (not perfectly) fitting openig bid (bergen) only gives 55%, than 3s seems enough. p is likely to be short in h where there are no wasted values. but that is a question of ps opening bid style. if used to frisky calls you better remain silent.....

[mike777]

First seat...second seat..nothing fancy..old old fashion

1)unfav vul...within 2 tricks
2) equal vul...within 3 tricks
3) fav vul....within 4-5 tricks


nothing fancy......

What can I say..I leave Blue Ribbon players to bid what they bid....rest of us..simple folks

Please, please note all the long very long explanations by others.

[Gerben42]

Quote

KQT9xxxx,-,K9865,x

What card should I take away? A small ♠?

[luckyloser]

sorry, just 7 s!
KQT9xxx,-,K9865,x

i consider this hand 4 1/2 losers, about 8 + winners. the standard losing trick count is only 4 losers, but surely a hand like this is much better:
KQJTxxx,-,AT98x,x and the same number of losers. so i think one should not only count losers but adapt by winners and quick tricks.

[Al_U_Card]

The main consideration is "What is my agreement with pard and will I have what he explains to the opps?"

Play the style you like. 1st seat, you are preempting 2 opps and one pard. Red vs White.....you are living closer to the edge. A preempt is meant to be a challenge, not a gift. Forewarned is forearmed

[Fluffy]

luckyloser, on Apr 27 2007, 08:41 AM, said:

the standard losing trick count is only 4 losers, but surely a hand like this is much better

Can you explain me the standard? I count 1+1/4♠+3+1/2♦+1♣

But I seem to disagree with everyone when someone mentions loser trick count.

[luckyloser]

a loser is any card below the Q, counting only the highest 3 cards in a suit. so Axxx are 2 losers, QJxxxxx also. Qx are 2 losers, a stiff K is one.
however this was refined and an unsupported (by A,K or J) Q is now 1/2 loser. the above hand has 4 losers (1,-,2,1) but of course one may use one´s judgment. KQ is not as good as AK, an unsupported K is not an A. so better add 1/2 to 1 loser here.

[Al_U_Card]

Let's just say that LTC was designed for trump contracts where there is a fit. Double fits work twice as well and misfits don't work very well at all. The problem with a preempt is that it also tends to be a great fit or a misfit. The initial count of 4 losers is ok for a guaranteed fit (7-0 is not a good fit). The rest depends on the auction and your agreements.

[Apollo81]

luckyloser, on Apr 26 2007, 05:19 AM, said:

Quote

we are red, they green.  what kinds of hands may opener in 1st seat have to open 3s and 4s?

3s: 6-7 tricks, 7-card or bad 8-card spade suit
4s: 7-8 tricks, 8+ spades

Quote

suppose p opens 3s, what do you need to raise to 4?

reasonable hand with 3-card support or
some hand with 3-4 tricks.

Quote

what do you expect in the terms of distribution (onesuiter, 2suiter, else), suit lengths, losers, playing tricks, quick tricks and highcard-points when p opens 3 or 4 s?

see above

Quote

as you play in anintermediate game, do not expect expert treatment by anyone at the table, just logical bridge. would there be any difference if you were in an expert circle?

I would expect an expert to at least loosely confine to the above. I expect an intermediate to open most 7 card spade suit non-openers 3♠ (and also declare badly), so I wouldn't raise as aggressively.